UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: Morrad
I see Jeremy Hunt has entered the debate claiming that if we leave the EU, the NHS will suffer due to the resultant loss in trade revenue and all the EU nurses will return home.

This is starting to get underhanded which is expected but I am surprised it has started this early.

NHS would be put under threat by Brexit, says Jeremy Hunt

Yes my first wife was first a pupil nurse of which there were many. They worked the wards and different departments and went to medical school and college. They weren't paid thaat much but were a useful resource which resulted in very skilled and capable nurses. This needs to be reestablished a s a means of nursing resource then we wouldn't waste so much on agency staff and have to take foreign nurses hence reduce immigration some. Same for all skills in NHS. Similar principle should be applied to all sectors.

The NHS is in 'queer street' and Jeremy Hunt is laying out the ground for blaming

a Brexit for when/if it goes 'tits up'!


The NHS should not need/use/requite to use agency staff which cost four times

as much as NHS staff. Since when did a good nurse need a degree? A good nurse

works from the bottom and learns on the job....Bring back the Matrons.....


@ specific Who is against TTIP? Which he is desperate we don't join.


TTIP is being negotiated behind closed doors between the USA and the EU. It will

cost at least a million undermine our public services, food, enviormental and

labour standards and for the first time ever allow US corporations to sue the UK

government in "special courts" TTIP will change our lives forever


In or out of the EU it seems the 'biggie' however is the TTIP and if we don't leave

the EU we will be screwed anyway as if the EU is in we will be IN by default!


Either way Jeremy Hunt has his excuse for a failing NHS.

waronwant.org...


Edit to add @grainofsand Love the new avitar

Agree. My first wife was a pupil nurse at first and used to work the wards an different departments and attend medical school and college. It resulted in very skilled cross department nurses. Her pay wasn't great as a pupil though. A lot cheaper to train our own NHS staff rather than use agency staff who often take their learning's elsewhere. This would reduce the need to take immigrants to fill the posts which we should fill with our own. Similar principles should be applied to all sectors.

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

The biggest scandal in my mind is the damage to health care systems in Eastern Europe who are paying to train their medical staff only to lose them to the UK. Romania has massive problems, and it is all down to the EU free travel/employment.
Romanian health service in crisis as doctors leave for the UK and other states

Number of doctors in Romanian hospitals has fallen from 21,400 to 14,400 since 2011, says president of professional body

How can anyone say that is right?
I know I want restrictions on unskilled Romanian labourers in the UK, but I feel the same about their doctors, they need them!
It is a disgrace that we are effectively using the Romanian medical schools to provide our doctors on the cheap.

Let's say it costs £100,000 per year to train a doctor in the UK, then half of our annual EU membership fees (£4 Billion) would provide 40,000 British trainee doctors.
It really is nonsense staying in the EU as far as I see it.

Whatever, we've all got our vote in June, let's hope common sense prevails, for us, and the piss poor countries of the EU who are losing their brightest and best.

a reply to: Freeborn

This thread is about EU and Brexit no about Scottish Independence. So it's not the place.

I don't hate England or English. My mothers side is English, my Fathers side is Irish. So what.

Non of your arguments matter. Your English and in England. What has it got to do with you how us Scots want to live.

What I find funny is listening to English people trotting out the same arguments for leaving EU as we did for leaving UK, but somehow your arguments count and mine don't.

So will leave at that. I've got the popcorn ready and can't wait to see what unfolds. Gonna be fun.

a reply to: bigyin

I hope y'all do one from the UK to be honest, you can backtrack as much as you like but you showed genuine hatred for the English in your previous posts.
So yes, I wish you the very best of luck with your independence plans.

...lol at the 'independence' wishing to be ruled by Brussells and keeping the queen as your head of state. Funny as #.

a reply to: grainofsand

For information. Personally speaking I want a Republic of Scotland. No Monarchy. And as already stated personally I want out of Europe. ie an Independent Republic of Scotland not in Europe.

Will take a while to achieve but thats what I'm working towards.

Step 1: vote to stay in EU to try and bring about #Indyref2

originally posted by: bigyin
Step 1: vote to stay in EU to try and bring about #Indyref2

Foolish move I'd say because the SNP will take that as a mandate for their commitment to stay in the EU.
I think you would be better voting leave the EU in June, then take on the independent UK forcing a split/new Scot's independence referendum where both our nations are forced to work together as equal independent partners.

I genuinely think you will be mugging yourselves if you vote remain in the EU as a tactical move to force another Scot's independence referendum.
The SNP are pro EU, and you will not get what you really want if you vote 'remain' in June.
I'd say think very carefully about it fella.

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

I did here on Radio 4 that one of the biggest expenses was due to staff management where nurses took time off during school holidays and Tey had to get agency staff in to cover. So no matter where the staff come from, a majority will be women, a majority will have kids in school. Therefore no matter where you get your staff from, until our societal balance of childcare becomes more even between that of men and women the NHS will still spend a fortune on Agency staff no matter what.

a reply to: MrsNonSpecific

What century do we live in?
I took my holidays for every school break, and I'm a bloke.
If we are breaking our hearts about males being under represented in the nursing profession then where are the feminists screaming about it? I saw a campaign recently where it was argued that women are excluded from the construction trades, and more should be done to encourage females to become bricklayers etc, where is the campaign fighting for the poor excluded men from the nursing industry??

It's a scandal that men are not encouraged to be nurses, I might write to my MP in disgust, poor downtrodden men lol

Train our own nurses and doctors I say, use the EU membership fees for it and stop stealing trained workers from piss poor EU nations who cannot afford the brain drain.
Oh, and allocate perhaps £100 million on a campaign to fight for the rights of under represented males in the nursing profession. It is clearly discriminatory.


#voteleave

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

The biggest scandal in my mind is the damage to health care systems in Eastern Europe who are paying to train their medical staff only to lose them to the UK. Romania has massive problems, and it is all down to the EU free travel/employment.
Romanian health service in crisis as doctors leave for the UK and other states

Number of doctors in Romanian hospitals has fallen from 21,400 to 14,400 since 2011, says president of professional body

How can anyone say that is right?
I know I want restrictions on unskilled Romanian labourers in the UK, but I feel the same about their doctors, they need them!
It is a disgrace that we are effectively using the Romanian medical schools to provide our doctors on the cheap.

Let's say it costs £100,000 per year to train a doctor in the UK, then half of our annual EU membership fees (£4 Billion) would provide 40,000 British trainee doctors.
It really is nonsense staying in the EU as far as I see it.

Whatever, we've all got our vote in June, let's hope common sense prevails, for us, and the piss poor countries of the EU who are losing their brightest and best.

Agree and fair comment on the Romanian situation. If people are made aware of the issues and make a common sense vote the by by EU!

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: MrsNonSpecific

What century do we live in?
I took my holidays for every school break, and I'm a bloke.
If we are breaking our hearts about males being under represented in the nursing profession then where are the feminists screaming about it? I saw a campaign recently where it was argued that women are excluded from the construction trades, and more should be done to encourage females to become bricklayers etc, where is the campaign fighting for the poor excluded men from the nursing industry??

It's a scandal that men are not encouraged to be nurses, I might write to my MP in disgust, poor downtrodden men lol

Train our own nurses and doctors I say, use the EU membership fees for it and stop stealing trained workers from piss poor EU nations who cannot afford the brain drain.
Oh, and allocate perhaps £100 million on a campaign to fight for the rights of under represented males in the nursing profession. It is clearly discriminatory.

#voteleave

There is a perfectly good reason why so many women are not bricklayers.

It's a horrible heavy lifting job that destroys you from the inside out and although there a few cracking lady brickies out there most females have the sense to not go down such a godawful route.

It's the same with nursing in my opinion.

Most blokes just do not have the skills to deal with it.

I was under the impression that most of our imported NHS staff were from non EU countries but may be wrong on that?

a reply to: grainofsand

I am not saying that necessarily. But staff management of people taking holidays at the same time costs the NHS millions due to agency.

So maybe a bit staff management might save them a few bob.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: MrsNonSpecific

What century do we live in?
I took my holidays for every school break, and I'm a bloke.
If we are breaking our hearts about males being under represented in the nursing profession then where are the feminists screaming about it? I saw a campaign recently where it was argued that women are excluded from the construction trades, and more should be done to encourage females to become bricklayers etc, where is the campaign fighting for the poor excluded men from the nursing industry??

It's a scandal that men are not encouraged to be nurses, I might write to my MP in disgust, poor downtrodden men lol

Train our own nurses and doctors I say, use the EU membership fees for it and stop stealing trained workers from piss poor EU nations who cannot afford the brain drain.
Oh, and allocate perhaps £100 million on a campaign to fight for the rights of under represented males in the nursing profession. It is clearly discriminatory.

#voteleave

Its not just Doctors and Nurses but other skill sets used in the NHS. I know a self employed Zimbabwe individual with one of those skill sets who earns 3-400 pound a day because we don't have enough of our own trained and he's been here for 2.5 years!

originally posted by: nonspecific
There is a perfectly good reason why so many women are not bricklayers.

It's a horrible heavy lifting job that destroys you from the inside out and although there a few cracking lady brickies out there most females have the sense to not go down such a godawful route.

It's the same with nursing in my opinion.

Most blokes just do not have the skills to deal with it.

Lol, true, I was ridiculing the feminist campaign about construction trades with the 'back in your face' nursing argument.

I was under the impression that most of our imported NHS staff were from non EU countries but may be wrong on that?

I don't know the ratio of EU/non-EU staff but for sure most of them are from poorer countries who's taxpayers funded their training and probably could do without losing the trained staff.
Doctors are a major problem for poor EU countries, leaving for richer states because they can, easily.
It is a genuine scandal, created by EU membership, and lack of UK investment because trained Eastern European medical staff are easy to employ.

...I would prefer to pay more taxes to train British people.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: nonspecific
There is a perfectly good reason why so many women are not bricklayers.

It's a horrible heavy lifting job that destroys you from the inside out and although there a few cracking lady brickies out there most females have the sense to not go down such a godawful route.

It's the same with nursing in my opinion.

Most blokes just do not have the skills to deal with it.

Lol, true, I was ridiculing the feminist campaign about construction trades with the 'back in your face' nursing argument.

I was under the impression that most of our imported NHS staff were from non EU countries but may be wrong on that?

I don't know the ratio of EU/non-EU staff but for sure most of them are from poorer countries who's taxpayers funded their training and probably could do without losing the trained staff.
Doctors are a major problem for poor EU countries, leaving for richer states because they can, easily.
It is a genuine scandal, created by EU membership, and lack of UK investment because trained Eastern European medical staff are easy to employ.

...I would prefer to pay more taxes to train British people.

My Stepson is currently on a scholarship studying medicine in Canada so at least we will get one decent English doctor and not have to pay for the training.

When He was 8 he said he wanted to be prime minister so he could make the world a better place and I really think he meant it.

6 foot 6 American football player training to be a doctor and want's to save the world, not bad for a poor kid from a council house.

a reply to: nonspecific

He sounds like a good person for the world
I imagine you feel that Britain fully funding our health care training needs is a better option than draining the trained workers from poorer EU nations then?

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: nonspecific

He sounds like a good person for the world

I imagine you feel that Britain fully funding our health care training needs is a better option than draining the trained workers from poorer EU nations then?

That is a big question and one that it would be hard to answer in a single post.

I think the big issue is that we in the UK have become very complacent in our attitudes and have created an apethetic generation.

Those that try and succeed are often seen in a negative light and we have a huge amount of people that think they can sit by and do nothing yet expect everything on a plate.

MNS has a friend and who is Hungarian. She has a decent degree and speaks about four languages, she came from a pretty crappy background including growing up in an ex communist country.

She has drive and ambition and works very hard for a good life. Compared to the "society owes me a living" culture that is growing daily in the UK then I say she deserves to have a better life than some English people.

We need to go back to basics and start teaching people how to work, live and survive without handouts but this will not happen overnight.

We have a generation of weak willed parents and even more weak willed children and that will take some dealing with.

a reply to: nonspecific

I agree with much of your sentiments, but please forgive me, like a dog with a bone, specifically, do you think it is right that Romania pays to train doctors and loses tens of thousands of them to the NHS because the UK does not invest enough in training, and EU membership creates the situation which makes it so easy and cheap?

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: nonspecific

I agree with much of your sentiments, but please forgive me, like a dog with a bone, specifically, do you think it is right that Romania pays to train doctors and loses tens of thousands of them to the NHS because the UK does not invest enough in training, and EU membership creates the situation which makes it so easy and cheap?

Another big question and a valid one.

Give me a while as need to think it through if we are going to have a full on debate on this.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: nonspecific

I agree with much of your sentiments, but please forgive me, like a dog with a bone, specifically, do you think it is right that Romania pays to train doctors and loses tens of thousands of them to the NHS because the UK does not invest enough in training, and EU membership creates the situation which makes it so easy and cheap?

I've got a couple of (half baked) thoughts on this. I've puzzled for a long time how it's economically viable to educate our own people poorly to the point they're virtually unemployable and rely on foreign countries to pay to train the professional staff we need.

At some point won't unemployment benefits to our underclass outweigh the money we saved on their education and training?

The other point is: what's to stop people we do pay to train from working abroad? There'd need to be some sort of rule that they'd have to work here for a set number of years before toddling off to more lucrative jobs overseas.

originally posted by: berenike

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: nonspecific

I agree with much of your sentiments, but please forgive me, like a dog with a bone, specifically, do you think it is right that Romania pays to train doctors and loses tens of thousands of them to the NHS because the UK does not invest enough in training, and EU membership creates the situation which makes it so easy and cheap?

I've got a couple of (half baked) thoughts on this. I've puzzled for a long time how it's economically viable to educate our own people poorly to the point they're virtually unemployable and rely on foreign countries to pay to train the professional staff we need.

At some point won't unemployment benefits to our underclass outweigh the money we saved on their education and training?

The other point is: what's to stop people we do pay to train from working abroad? There'd need to be some sort of rule that they'd have to work here for a set number of years before toddling off to more lucrative jobs overseas.

Unemployment benefit is not as much of a drain as you would think.

It might make sense to bring in people from outside the UK and allow them to be paid less with less rights.

Maybe an unemployed person on benefits plus the low wage of an Eastern European nurse is better than paying for a UK resident to train and have all of the benefits is cheaper in the long run?

No evidence but it sounds like the kind of #ty thing that we would do?