UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: stinkelbaum
stay: 'with the steel works now shut, we have to import steel, leaving the EU would drive the price up.'
leave: 'it should be fine.
'

Sometimes things get passed their 'sell by date' and things have to be

reviewed and changed? The EU could fall in that bracket?

The long slow death of the British steel industry, may have been

decided in India but it was scripted in Beijing. The Tata group

is owned by the Indian conglomerate has been hit by cheap

Chinese competition.


Chinese producers can sell below cost price as they are fully subsidised

by the Chinese government. The glut of discounted metal has halved

the steel price in the last 12 months.


Ministers insist that they are powerless to hold back the rising tide of

Chinese metal noting that the government is bound by EU. RULES

which prevents the state intervening.


www.theguardian.com...


Maybe its time for us to leave the outdated EU behind .... and deal

with India and China as Great Britain.

Exactly!

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

I love this constant reference to the "Stay" campaign as Project Fear. By the same token, does that mean i can refer to the "Leave" campaign as "Project Pie in the Sky" (because they can't offer any guarantees of anything)?

Well it's called Project Fear because the Stay camp can't seem to find any positive reasons for staying, and so are left with the only alternative which is to point out the possible drawbacks of leaving.

That, and the fact that Mr Cameron has threatened the career prospects of those cabinet ministers who don't fall in line with his views.

originally posted by: CJCrawley

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

I love this constant reference to the "Stay" campaign as Project Fear. By the same token, does that mean i can refer to the "Leave" campaign as "Project Pie in the Sky" (because they can't offer any guarantees of anything)?

Well it's called Project Fear because the Stay camp can't seem to find any positive reasons for staying, and so are left with the only alternative which is to point out the possible drawbacks of leaving.

That, and the fact that Mr Cameron has threatened the career prospects of those cabinet ministers who don't fall in line with his views.

There is that!

Assume your for LEAVING.

originally posted by: CJCrawley
Well it's called Project Fear because the Stay camp can't seem to find any positive reasons for staying, and so are left with the only alternative which is to point out the possible drawbacks of leaving.

That, and the fact that Mr Cameron has threatened the career prospects of those cabinet ministers who don't fall in line with his views.

... The fact that George Osborne has today taken off the table,

the tax he intended putting on pension savings.... and I wonder

what else he is going to reconsider in the budget to make it look

like we cant survive without the EU?


I pointed out earlier in the thread that the EU has shelved certain

things re. low voltage electrical items till after the referendum?


Looks like all the *nasty's* are being put out of sight till after

the referendum, in the hope that the vote will be remain in .... then

we will get HIT with the full force of the EU. diktats .................

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: CJCrawley
Well it's called Project Fear because the Stay camp can't seem to find any positive reasons for staying, and so are left with the only alternative which is to point out the possible drawbacks of leaving.

That, and the fact that Mr Cameron has threatened the career prospects of those cabinet ministers who don't fall in line with his views.

... The fact that George Osborne has today taken off the table,

the tax he intended putting on pension savings.... and I wonder

what else he is going to reconsider in the budget to make it look

like we cant survive without the EU?


I pointed out earlier in the thread that the EU has shelved certain

things re. low voltage electrical items till after the referendum?


Looks like all the *nasty's* are being put out of sight till after

the referendum, in the hope that the vote will be remain in .... then

we will get HIT with the full force of the EU. diktats .................

Correct! And who will hurt? The less well off!

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Assume your for LEAVING.

You assume correctly.

Interesting..........

Vote Leave has today launched a new video: ‘Who Do You Trust?’ www.youtube.com...
It shows how politicians have made a series of promises about the EU and then broken them.

Please share the video with friends and family on social media. Tell them - Don’t Get Conned Again.

Alongside the video, d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net...
Vote Leave has published research which reveals the 43 biggest broken promises made by politicians since we joined the EU 43 years ago. Politicians from all parties have handed more money and more control to Brussels, despite promises to the contrary.
The British public was promised that the EU was just a common market, that it would not erode national sovereignty, that we would keep control of our borders, that we would not give up the rebate and that we would not have to bailout Greece. All of these promises were then broken.

If we want to start spending our money on our priorities again and to take back control of our borders, our economy and our democracy - then we need to Vote Leave.


Vote Leave
www.voteleavetakecontrol.org...

"When it becomes serious, you have to lie"
Jean-Claude Junker, President of the European Commission.

Says it all really.

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

From my own point of view, Scotland needs away from vile Westminster.

Speaking as an Englishman who's taxes directly fund Scotland's free University system and pay for Scotland's free medical prescriptions, whilst English citizens in England are forced to pay for theirs, I wholeheartedly agree.

As for the EU, I'm voting out.

One point worthy of consideration which I've not yet seen raised in relation to this question is that the EU was created in the pre-Internet age. A time when the world was a very different place in regards to trade and communication. Global retail was the preserve of a few major corporations, global communication was an occasional transatlantic phone call between relatives or a letter to a penfriend once a month. Today you can set up a global sales business in your garden shed with just a PC, you can communicate with strangers and friends in multiple countries within a matter of seconds via email - or on a forum such as this.

If the EU were to be invented tomorrow it would probably by virtue of need be a very different structure than the example we see today.

My reasons for opting out are though unrelated to that, so I may return to extrapolate at a later time.

I work for a global company, have friends who live in the EU and have a friend who wants to go and live in in Costa Del Sunshine for health reasons in Spain. For these reasons I am for staying IN, as I don't see how opting out will make their lives easier and they may be forced to shelve their plans or return home, which will make them miserable.

A key example of how the EU is a good thing is their robust polices on HSSE, without them horrible things can occur. An example of this happened in Romania. A new owner of a club signed a waiver saying he was responsible for the building, didn't bother keeping up with fire safety inspections and structural work.

Romanian Club Fire

His club set on fire causing the death 27 people, due to the back handed corrupt nature of dealing with HSSE in businesses. That man is now responsible for the death of these innocent people, because he was more interested in making money. This would never occur in the UK due to the HSSE regulations, most conceived in Brussels, lord knows how many lives these regulations have saved, and prevented cowboys from being negligent.

I'm an American and I believe the politicians should do what the people want. I don't know a lot about it and it's a very complicated issue, but it seems you are not getting the best of deals when it comes to being an E.U. member. France has all but said it will seek revenge if you leave and your GDP would drop a bit, but it took a much harder hit in 2008 - 09, so you'd bounce back. You'd be able to form your own trade agreements, instead of following policy you have little control over. Just a surface impression looks like you'll be better off independent of the E.U.


www.theweek.co.uk...

A study by the think-tank Open Europe, which wants to see the EU radically reformed, found that the worst-case "Brexit" scenario is that the UK economy loses 2.2 per cent of its total GDP by 2030 (by comparison, the recession of 2008-09 knocked about 6 per cent off UK GDP). However, it says that GDP could rise by 1.6 per cent if the UK was able to negotiate a free trade deal with Europe – ie to maintain the current trade set-up – and pursued "very ambitious deregulation".

Whether other EU countries would offer such generous terms is one of the big unknowns of the debate. Pro-exit campaigners argue that it would be in the interests of other European countries to re-establish free trade, but their opponents suggest that the EU will want to make life hard for Britain in order to discourage further breakaways.

France has said recently that there would be "consequences" for Britain if it left the EU.

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

I know I posted earlier, but I thought I should just skim my toe in the form of research came across this article, which I think clearly spells it out one way or the other:

The Week

And I think I am going to stick with 'IN'.

Will be doing further research, but I am going with my gut, and my gut is rarely wrong. lol.

a reply to: DAVID64

Just posted the same article, but came to the opposite conclusion.

That's people for you.

originally posted by: MrsNonSpecific
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

I know I posted earlier, but I thought I should just skim my toe in the form of research came across this article, which I think clearly spells it out one way or the other:

The Week

And I think I am going to stick with 'IN'.

Will be doing further research, but I am going with my gut, and my gut is rarely wrong. lol.

Only rarely is insufficient on this occasion. But we all make mistakes from time to time. Good luck with your decision. Do you think that 70% LEAVE voters on ATS are actually wrong! Collective wisdom is more powerful and accurate that an individuals thinking!

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Just because there is a majority voice, doesn't mean that that 'collective' is wise. Many people together doesn't mean wise or correct, it just means there are more.

More isn't always better or wiser.

originally posted by: 83Liberty
"When it becomes serious, you have to lie"
Jean-Claude Junker, President of the European Commission.

Says it all really.

He's the man who is now claiming that a Brexit could lead to WWIII.

When can you tell the man is lying? When he opens his mouth.

originally posted by: MrsNonSpecific
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Just because there is a majority voice, doesn't mean that that 'collective' is wise. Many people together doesn't mean wise or correct, it just means there are more.

More isn't always better or wiser.

It does if a large number of them have lived the history of the EU then the collective empirical wisdom wont be far off the truth and the best decision for the British people. I am 55 and many of the OUT voters have a fair amount of adult experience of the EU in there lifetime. This does not mean that the younger voters don't have enough understanding to opt for OUT.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

originally posted by: 83Liberty
"When it becomes serious, you have to lie"
Jean-Claude Junker, President of the European Commission.

Says it all really.

He's the man who is now claiming that a Brexit could lead to WWIII.

When can you tell the man is lying? When he opens his mouth.

JUNK from Junker. name fits!

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

You are in luck then because in the UK we have an ageing population so the baby boomers out number the younger generation. You in correct in saying that i am younger and have only ever experienced a UK in the EU, however it wasn't all sunshine and roses before the EU either. I know that in the 1970s Britain was no picnic, and I am not saying that the EU has it made more or less so.

But I am happy with the smoking ban (I am smoker), building regulations, work time directives, equality for mothers and fathers entitlement to MAT leave, there are many advantages to remaining in the EU and IMO these outweigh the uncertainty and possible ramifications if we opt out.

Post for PARAPHI

Well, this is quite an important issue for the UK and Europe. I am not fussed that there are several threads on the topic, so long as they stick to intent.

Bear in mind that the referendum is four months away, so there will be plenty of time for more threads!

To answer the OP.

I am IN and OUT. That is, I am undecided, or unpersuaded.