FBI escalates war with Apple: 'marketing' bigger concern than terror

I don’t buy for 1 second that Apple can’t easily disable/bypass the auto-wipe feature, and for that matter also the login module, to allow full access to this particular iPhone. When the phone was still in development, and later when it was either upgraded or being patched, I’m sure they disabled this functionality while testing, as it would get in the way.

So, what I think is Apple is using this opportunity to convey to their stock holders and customer base that Apple is on their side and will not betray their trust. In other words, it’s just a marketing ploy.

I’m also surprised that the FBI really needs Apple’s assistance in this matter. I thought they were a little more tech savvy than that. Maybe I misjudged. Then again, perhaps the govt is doing a little marketing of their own, just like Apple, and demonstrating to Joe Blow, Average Dirtbag on the Street, that they are sensitive to privacy issues and will always ask for permission before proceeding. Ha!!

Wish I had the link, but I can’t seem to find it now. Anyway, according to the Sudo Security Group, on a technical level, Apple could carry out the FBI order by creating a RAM disk signed by Apple’s production certificate for the specific ECID of the suspect’s iPhone. This solution would allow Apple to use existing technologies in the firmware file format to grant access to the phone ensuring that there is no possible way the same solution would work on another device.

Just one last thing, I thought there was overwhelming support by the public for tech companies to aid government authorities in cases involving terrorist and other major criminal activities, as long as a proper warrant is provided. The public just doesn’t want the government snooping on EVERYONE at their whim. Maybe I’m wrong about this.

At any rate, I think I smell a skunk. Something about all this just doesn’t make sense to me...

Just to add this quick video from John McAfee for the sake of this discussion:
Open One Door - Open Them All

Also, I follow Edward Snowden on Twitter and he says Apple shouldn't do it.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
The FBI is just doing an experiment to gauge public opinion.

I have shown over and over that there are software programs that forensic experts use that are even compatible with iOS 9 that can crack into the phone without bricking it.

There's no reason for them to request this of Apple. They already can do this on their own if they want. Hell, your local police can. The software even makes a nice little report with bullet points and easy to navigate tabs for different info for the police.

You keep saying this ...

Hate appeals to authority, but have personal experience in this area. Work full time in forensics.

Cellebrite can't do it. We have one.
Elcomsoft can't do it. We have that.

We can grab an Apple account token and get to your backups, but we need access to a device you've used to sync with your Apple account or the Apple account password itself, and if it goes into two step authentication via email or other details we're in trouble. Its one of the reasons we keep evidence devices in shielded bags and don't let them near the internet, so the user doesn't access it online.

Previous gen Apple devices there are easier approaches.

None of this is confidential or secret information. If there was a way to do it immediately available it would spread soon enough. We have conferences and all hang out together. You often hear oh Jim or Jane managed to do X with Y hardware, they're writing it up / selling it / presenting on it.

It's the same with big data forensics. It's not that secret, it's just really dry and boring. We do all this in public. Book your own travel, but I can send you invites if you want.

originally posted by: netbound
Wish I had the link, but I can’t seem to find it now. Anyway, according to the Sudo Security Group, on a technical level, Apple could carry out the FBI order by creating a RAM disk signed by Apple’s production certificate for the specific ECID of the suspect’s iPhone.

I told you in the other thread where you posted this that its from a Will Strafach article. Source

It's bizarre you can't find it, because you're actually quoting Strafach word for word and that article is still near the top of the person's twitter feed. Quote from the article for comparison:

This solution would allow Apple to use existing technologies in the firmware file format to grant access to the phone ensuring that there is no possible way the same solution would work on another device.

originally posted by: netbound
So, what I think is Apple is using this opportunity to convey to their stock holders and customer base that Apple is on their side and will not betray their trust. In other words, it’s just a marketing ploy.

Wish I had the link, but I can’t seem to find it now. Anyway, according to the Sudo Security Group, on a technical level, Apple could carry out the FBI order by creating a RAM disk signed by Apple’s production certificate for the specific ECID of the suspect’s iPhone. This solution would allow Apple to use existing technologies in the firmware file format to grant access to the phone ensuring that there is no possible way the same solution would work on another device.

At any rate, I think I smell a skunk. Something about all this just doesn’t make sense to me...

Right, I believe that it should be sufficient for Apple to personally take custody of the phone in question. Break into the data privately and supplying the data to the FBI. As long as chain of custody is maintained and verification of the data belonging to the unit in question. Thus preventing any anti-Apple encryption technology to leak to other uses.

But it does smell fishy because of the said phone happened to be used in a high profile terrorist event of some kind of a push towards future precedence and further legislation. Both sides are using this as a ploy.

a reply to: Pinke

I'm not talking about those products....

And no, I'm not going to link to it.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

You can't go to court and say, 'sorry your honor, I'm not going to link to it.'

So am left with two possibilities ...

1. American police and potentially other police services around the world have incredibly well kept super powers, but they maintain over a billion dollars in transactions with forensic experts and third party products to keep these super powers hidden. They can break 256 encryption with eye lasers and rainbows from their butt, but they need to keep people like Pinke in a job otherwise the public will know! (Thank *you* big government conspiracy, Pinke likes being employed)

OR

2. There is a fundamental difference between the live big data network forensics the NSA (or whatever shadow org) actually do, and on the street device forensics destined for court which the public often seems to conflate ... This leads them to believe that their security services are magical and often nefarious.

They're wrong.

Am sorry, but it just doesn't make sense for your average detective to have access to this and not talk about it. Chances are whatever super duper software you link to, I'm probably well aware of its existence. Hell their sales people probably visit us.

Calling you out, sorry.

a reply to: Willtell

The word "White" has five letters. The word "Brown" has five letters. The same number as pleading the 5th. Letters that are sent are white, while boxes are brown. The US Postal Service sends white letters. UPS sends brown boxes. The US Postal Service and UPS must be working together to plead the 5th.

See what I did there?

Does anyone come to the conclusion that this has nothing to do with the FBI or creating back doors to its product, but the fact that Apple sales are going to soon stagnate and possibly soon plummet do to no innovation for over five years?

What better way to boost sales and gain consumers than to make a marketing ploy giving an illusion that they are on our side. Make it seem like they are there to protect us from the thing people dislike the most in the present.

If they just give up the backdoor to the FBI they will not make ANY money from them. And what do you think will happen to sales and return customers if they did?

It's all just a scam yet people are too gullible to even realize it.

a reply to: TheLotLizard

Marketing is a big part of it. Money is a stake. The first rule of our current world.

a reply to: MystikMushroom
If the FBI can't do it ask them to send it over to the UK as we have a couple of immigrants on our local market that will unlock any phone within 5 minutes.
I agree totally with you're post, it's an intel opperation. But I feel it's more to do with fooling the public with "look even we can't break into the phones so we can't be eaves dropping on you".

a reply to: Pinke
Pinke, regarding your reply to what I said about the Sudo Security Group solution, I’m not sure what your point is. You said,
“It's bizarre you can't find it, because you're actually quoting Strafach word for word and that article is still near the top of the person's twitter feed.”

I had read the article earlier in the day, made a note of it on my pc for later reference, but forgot to save the url for the article. I just copied what I had noted earlier into my post. If I had the url handy I would have included it. So? I don’t see a problem with that.

The only reason for including the Sudo Security Group solution was to illustrate that not everyone agrees with Apple’s assertion that if they complied with the court order then all existing iPhone’s would be vulnerable.

My feeling is that if Apple has designed the iPhone in such a way that in critical situations where the password isn’t known there is no way to gain full access to the data, then Apple has poorly designed the product. I don’t believe this to be the case, though, and think that Apple could easily gain access to the phone, but are refusing to do it. And I don’t believe Apple when they say that it would be a big deal and that to do so would jeopardize the security of all other iPhones. I think that’s a crock, and that Apple is exploiting this situation as a means to solidify it’s customer base.

originally posted by: TheLotLizard
Does anyone come to the conclusion that this has nothing to do with the FBI or creating back doors to its product, but the fact that Apple sales are going to soon stagnate and possibly soon plummet do to no innovation for over five years?

What better way to boost sales and gain consumers than to make a marketing ploy giving an illusion that they are on our side. Make it seem like they are there to protect us from the thing people dislike the most in the present.

If they just give up the backdoor to the FBI they will not make ANY money from them. And what do you think will happen to sales and return customers if they did?

It's all just a scam yet people are too gullible to even realize it.

You don’t think sales could go up by Apple saying:

“Gee we just helped the government on Terrorism”

I just thought that Apple is really giving its product a boost by illustrating its security is so great even the FBI cant break it.


They could make a commercial for the next super bowl:

“EVEN THE FBI CAN’T PENETRATE OUR SECURITY MEASURES!”
Buy the Apple 20 G


Or whatever toy they have next for sale

A better idea for Apple

Name the next toy

The FBIphone


They'll break sales records

a reply to: jappee
Yeah, jappee, I think we’re on the same page here. If verifiable, why couldn’t a complete data dump be provided by Apple? I thought I read in the court’s request that this would be acceptable.

I can’t help but think that if the Apple position prevails, and there is another big terrorist attack in the states that isn’t intercepted by the authorities because they had limited access to phone communications, then who will get the blame? As with everything else in life, there are exceptions with electronic communications privacy issues that need to be addressed. I think known terrorist activities should qualify as a valid exception, and that tech companies and the govt should work together to keep us safe from future attacks, etc.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
The FBI is just doing an experiment to gauge public opinion.

I have shown over and over that there are software programs that forensic experts use that are even compatible with iOS 9 that can crack into the phone without bricking it.

There's no reason for them to request this of Apple. They already can do this on their own if they want. Hell, your local police can. The software even makes a nice little report with bullet points and easy to navigate tabs for different info for the police.

I've heard of this before. Do you know how it works?

Does it actually decrepit everything?

a reply to: yesyesyes

Unless there is a major flaw in the encryption, I am not buying the software can break the encryption. Maybe it can get into a phone and access unencrypted data.



edit:

and of course if there is normal use of the phone then it would handle the decryption.

originally posted by: netbound
a reply to: Pinke
Pinke, regarding your reply to what I said about the Sudo Security Group solution, I’m not sure what your point is.

You explanation explains the near word for word quoting. If you had copy / paste dumped it into the googles or bing you would have been able to link the whole article. That's all.

The only reason for including the Sudo Security Group solution was to illustrate that not everyone agrees with Apple’s assertion that if they complied with the court order then all existing iPhone’s would be vulnerable.

Will Strafach, the person you quoted, actually somewhat supports Apple's decision making. He just believes people misunderstand the logic behind Apple's argument.

Given people are regularly misunderstanding the difference between IPhone S4's and the difference between previous pin numbers and current gen pin numbers, I can see why the person devotes time to try to correct these things.

My feeling is that if Apple has designed the iPhone in such a way that in critical situations where the password isn’t known there is no way to gain full access to the data, then Apple has poorly designed the product.

They didn't design a device that way.

For the generation of iPhone we're discussing, icloud is a default and required option.

If you're the legitimate user of the device you reset the phone, it wipes, and you put in a new pin. Then it downloads your phone back up and you continue with your life. If you've forgotten your Apple password, you call Apple and get it reset. Then you put your Apple password (different from pin) into your reset phone and the same thing happens.

All they've done is create a device where if you don't know the Apple password, and don't know the pin then you're screwed if you're not the original user. They've maintained a massive and regularly used loop hole for law enforcement in the icloud back ups. It just so happens that in this instance a county IT staff member reset the password thinking they were being clever.

Will Strafach acknowledges the following:
* Performing this solution for the FBI once sets a precedent
* The process may involve connecting the phone to Apple's internal network and this may not be acceptable
* The process is highly technical and potentially time consuming (Pinke side note, if it is in response to a warrant it may not be paid either)
* Part of the FBI's request involves weakening the IPhone's security publically

The only 'good' thing about it is if the warrant go through then it would many American forensic experts and outfits out of work. The 'good' of that is very perspective based.

originally posted by: yesyesyes

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
The FBI is just doing an experiment to gauge public opinion.

I have shown over and over that there are software programs that forensic experts use that are even compatible with iOS 9 that can crack into the phone without bricking it.

There's no reason for them to request this of Apple. They already can do this on their own if they want. Hell, your local police can. The software even makes a nice little report with bullet points and easy to navigate tabs for different info for the police.

I've heard of this before. Do you know how it works?

Does it actually decrepit everything?

It doesn't decrypt anything.

The most standard practice is using a loop hole through iTunes and iCloud to access phone back ups which are not decrypted and can be accessed in a number of ways. The software / device manages this transaction for you so the forensic analyst doesn't mess it up.

FBI can't do this because the backups are linked to the password they reset. Side note, it doesn't capture everything possible, but for most investigations it will capture everything needed.

originally posted by: tweetie
I don't mean to hog this thread, so please forgive me, but this just showed up on my Twitter feed from Wired:

Link

I use a 20 digit alpha-numeric-symbolic password on my accounts and nothing goes to a cloud period. We used to have a LEAK for encryption that was commercially written in the US. The LEAK (Law Enforcement Access Key) was kept by two agencies and one had to get each half from each agency to use it. That was back in the 90's though and I haven't kept up with it.

But, if the Wired Article you linked to is correct that a 6 digit alphanumeric code may take 5.5 years if ever is correct, I feel pretty good about my pass-codes. However, I don't believe for a minute that the NSA and the rest of the community doesn't already have a hack for that iPhone. Now whether they would share that with the FBI is another issue. There are reasons like this leaked info in the court filing of previous efforts, leaks about sat phone tracking of terrorists by congress, and much more that would make the intelligence black ops not release that information to other agencies. You might as well just make everything public.

During the Iraq war in 1991 the CIA intercepted a printer in Amman Jordan that was headed to the Iraqi Air Force. They put a chip in it that once hooked to the network blanked out their AT Radar screens when desired. Of course it got leaked to the rest of the world. We also put explosive chips on communication boards that were sent to Poland and used during the cold war so we could remotely blow their communication links if the Soviets started rolling into Western Europe. All of this is public or has been released to the public by some means in the past. I am not telling you anything classified here. However, I think you can see the kind of damage letting everyone in the world know about certain capabilities can do to our intelligence gathering capabilities through SIGINT/COMINT.

Anyway, act accordingly.

a reply to: spirit_horse

Thank you for that very interesting and informative reply.