Bernie Sanders: ‘Democratic Socialist’ Or Out-And-Out Stalinist?

a reply to: Swills

As if every single candidate ever hasn't done the exact same thing. This time though, people believe Bernie and are sick of lying, bought and paid for politicians.

Bernie is not honest. What he says about the other candidates, what he says about Denmark, is all nonsense, but people eat it up.

a reply to: Teikiatsu

Yeah, people certainly did die because of the cold war.

Sadly, greed kind of has that effect when you have armies to play real-life games of "Risk"" with.

And we the people just ate it all up, trusted and believed the propaganda (on both sides American and Russian).

I don't see how Bernie can say that he doesn't want government control of the means of production, and yet says that we should have socialized medicine in the US.

Isn't that government controlling the means of production for an entire industry?

a reply to: DBCowboy

No.

The government isn't going to start making aspirin and crutches and MRI machines. The government wouldn't have "ownership" (like the military) over the medical schools.

Means of production like what you envision already exist: the military.

We're not militarizing the health system.

There's a very big difference between federalizing what SHOULD be a public service like healthcare, and federalizing factories and farms and the like. Think a little harder on what the phrase "means of production" actually means.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Swills

As if every single candidate ever hasn't done the exact same thing. This time though, people believe Bernie and are sick of lying, bought and paid for politicians.

Bernie is not honest. What he says about the other candidates, what he says about Denmark, is all nonsense, but people eat it up.

You dont lie for 30 years straight, sticking to the same story. What specifically does he say about Denmark that is nonsense?

a reply to: MystikMushroom

But under a socialized medicine program, prices would be influenced and that, even indirectly, would affect the cost of aspirin.

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes
There's a very big difference between federalizing what SHOULD be a public service like healthcare, and federalizing factories and farms and the like. Think a little harder on what the phrase "means of production" actually means.

Healthcare is a commodity, one that will be under government control.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: DBCowboy

No.

The government isn't going to start making aspirin and crutches and MRI machines. The government wouldn't have "ownership" (like the military) over the medical schools.

Means of production like what you envision already exist: the military.

We're not militarizing the health system.

The gov does own the medical schools. Theodore Rex intruded the gov into the medical field when doctors needed to be licensed. Instant doctor shortage. Gov ownership is the reason you can't buy medicine that you are sure will work, or want to try. Why you can't opt for a new and untried medical treatment. Why nurses can't do what they can do. And why medical care costs several times more than is good business.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: MystikMushroom

But under a socialized medicine program, prices would be influenced and that, even indirectly, would affect the cost of aspirin.

Aspirin is cheap and over-the-counter. Let's talk about how much x-rays, MRI scans, and prescription medicine for life-threatening diseases cost, and how much they need to be not-for-profit. Or let's don't because this thread is about Bernie Sanders and Stalinism.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes
There's a very big difference between federalizing what SHOULD be a public service like healthcare, and federalizing factories and farms and the like. Think a little harder on what the phrase "means of production" actually means.

Healthcare is a commodity, one that will be under government control.

The ONLY qualms I have about nationalized healthcare, is that some scumbag corporatist would try and defund and dismantle it like they're doing right now in the UK, causing national havoc. If things are properly funded, nationalized healthcare is the pride of nations lucky enough to have them. The NHS was in the London Olympics opening ceremony, they're so fond of it.

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: MystikMushroom

But under a socialized medicine program, prices would be influenced and that, even indirectly, would affect the cost of aspirin.

Aspirin is cheap and over-the-counter. Let's talk about how much x-rays, MRI scans, and prescription medicine for life-threatening diseases cost, and how much they need to be not-for-profit. Or let's don't because this thread is about Bernie Sanders and Stalinism.

So government would influence how much technicians, doctors, support staff would get paid.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Socialist or not, he's a pure demagogue, promising people exactly what they want to hear, but hardly what they need.

What makes you the one who knows what people need???

Sanders isn't promising anything. He's telling people what his goals are that he wants to achieve. But he admits they're not easy to achieve. You're starting to sound like every other right wing talking head with your simple statements which spin the truth into something else.

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes
There's a very big difference between federalizing what SHOULD be a public service like healthcare, and federalizing factories and farms and the like. Think a little harder on what the phrase "means of production" actually means.

Healthcare is individuals doing a job or a calling. How does gov interference improve an experienced professional's judgment?

Ah, nothing would surprise me when it comes to the history of anyone associated with the Democrats OR socialism. I don't really care if it's true. If it did turn out to be true it would only make his supporters cream their shorts even more. It's pretty damn obvious where his supporters are coming from. Who and what they are.

That's OK. They can deny it forever and they still own it. They know the truth and everyone with a brain knows it too.

originally posted by: Tiamat384
a reply to: RomeByFire
It's important to note he's not socialist. Despite what he says.

originally posted by: Gothmog
When Sanders was being "courted" by the Democratic Party did he not keep repeating he was a Socialist not a Democrat ?

Heh...we've come full circle. From people calling Obama a socialist, even though he never called himself one, to people saying Sanders' is not a socialist, even though he says is.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: DBCowboy

No.

The government isn't going to start making aspirin and crutches and MRI machines. The government wouldn't have "ownership" (like the military) over the medical schools.

Means of production like what you envision already exist: the military.

We're not militarizing the health system.

People choose to be in the military. You can leave the military.

Let me tell you something. I can't drive right now and haven't been allowed to drive for 10 years. Guess why? I have epilepsy. The doctor says I can't drive so I can't drive. End of story.

Now of course that's a rational thing. It makes sense. But it doesn't HAVE TO make sense. A doctor is already a powerful person. Bring politics into the equation and give government the golden key and you'll find out real quick just how "sick" a person can be when it works for the government.

You can't opt out of government controlled healthcare. You can't even say no if they order you to go to the doctor. Even if you're not sick.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Teikiatsu

Yeah, people certainly did die because of the cold war.

...what? Cold war? Are you serious?

Sadly, greed kind of has that effect when you have armies to play real-life games of "Risk"" with.

And we the people just ate it all up, trusted and believed the propaganda (on both sides American and Russian).

The executions, famines, forced labor and gulags were not propaganda.

America has become so right wing that Sanders is just barely left of center compared to the rest of the world.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Oh I'm sure if we pulled up politifact he'd be the most honest one of the bunch, while Trump would be dead last, aka a liar.