1 Corinthians 15, Where Does Paul Get His Info?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

19 similarities does not a prophecy fulfil.

Exactly. So why should I believe that Jesus is the incarnation of a supposedly prophecied character, when he didn't fulfill all of the prophecy?

However there are over 600 prophecies concerning Jesus Christ.

No there's not.

Like I said earlier, ancient Egyptians saw Osiris everywhere there was water. I believe in water, but not necessarily that water is the embodiment of Osiris, but who am I argue with what an ancient Egyptian believed.

Christians see Jesus everywhere. That doesn't mean that Jesus actually is everywhere. But, who am I tell them that I don't think that's Jesus. It's just a lamentation, or an exultation, or just wishful thinking.

a reply to: windword

do I need to post all the prophecies so you can read them?

353 out of over 600 have already been fulfilled the rest will be fulfilled when he comes to establish his kingdom with Israel.

I see Jesus (positionally)as sitting at the right hand of the father awaiting that is by scripture.

I don't know what Jesus looks like to recognize him. If I was to see a bearded man I would not jump to conclusion it is Jesus. If he claimed to be I would doubt it. Because Jesus Christ has no reason to appear to me or any man out of time and nor has made any promises in his words to do so. I would most likely just tell the being that my Lord rebukes thee and ask Jesus Christ to bind him, silence him and for that being to leave and never come back.

But He did fulfil 353 so far and he will fulfil the rest when he comes again.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

do I need to post all the prophecies so you can read them?

Just the ones that prove the scriptures mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 3-4.

Otherwise, amke a thread about all the prophecies that supposedly predict Jesus, and I'll post in that thread.

a reply to: windword

We were talking about the prophecies Jesus had already fulfilled and will fulfil not 1 Cor 15. Sorry you are the one who hijacked the thread in that direction I merely went down the rabbit trail with you.

Anyway, you were already given many scriptures by me and others to which without a breath rejected them all. But you accepted without criticism, cynicism, or the benefit of a doubt the teaching of men over the preserved word of God.

To each his own as the saying goes.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

We were talking about the prophecies Jesus had already fulfilled and will fulfil not 1 Cor 15. Sorry you are the one who hijacked the thread in that direction I merely went down the rabbit trail with you.

The title of this thread is 1 Corinthians 15, Where Does Paul Get His Info?

I haven't hijacked this thread, everyone that's pointing to non-relevant scripture is. Stick to the topic.

Anyway, you were already given many scriptures by me and others to which without a breath rejected them all.

Cherry picked scriptures have been cited while the surrounding scriptures that belie your assertion have been omitted and ignored. If Jesus supposedly fulfills some but not all of the so called prophecy, then he didn't fulfill it.

a reply to: windword

Some of those scriptures have not been fulfilled YET. Just wait they will be.

but 353 so far are fulfilled I linked a site that shows the verses. (way more than 19 similarities).

Seems you don't believe Jesus Christ will return and fulfil the rest of them.

as I said you were given scriptures and denied all of them but you blindly follow men's teaching (the videos you linked too) over the preserved words of God.

You wont convince me and I wont convince you.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

as I said you were given scriptures and denied all of them but you blindly follow men's teaching (the videos you linked too) over the preserved words of God.

What you think "God's word" says is not what I think it (the Old Testament) says. I"m not alone in my thoughts, in fact, I'm in good company.

Origen, a prominent and influential church father, conceded in the year 248 CE ... that the consensus among the Jews in his time was that Isaiah 53 “bore reference to the whole [Jewish] people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.”3

The broad consensus among Jewish, and even some Christian commentators, that the “servant” in Isaiah 52-53 refers to the nation of Israel is understandable. Isaiah 53, which is the fourth of four renowned Servant Songs, is umbilically connected to its preceding chapters. The “servant” in each of the three previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the nation of Israel.

Who is God’s Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53

a reply to: windword


Nevermind, I wont ask you what I was going to. I will write in my spare time tonight and in the morning, and have a post for you as soon as I am finished writing.

originally posted by: windword

The Old Testament prophecies are NOT fulfilled through the biblical character of Jesus of Nazareth. There is no prophecy of a dying and rising messiah, whose kingdom exists, not on Earth, but in Heaven. Daniels Messiah as well as Isaiah's hero govern earthly kingdoms.

Good thread. I've been reading with some degree of interest, waiting to see if anyone thinks they can "prove" anything on a subject essentially unprovable, by the very nature of it. I was determined not to enter the fray, but only read, however this is twice now that you've made the assertion that the Kingdom exists only in Heaven, and twice you've made the claim that "Daniels' Messiah" and "isaiah's Hero" (is there a tattoo of ownership involved?) govern an earthly kingdom instead. I'm interested at this point in how you arrive at either of those conclusions. Where do you find any support for the notion, for example, that the guy Daniel and Isaiah own is to have an "Earthly kingdom"? Likewise, where is the support (Biblically - not according to doctrines formulated by "Christians") for the notion that Jesus' Kingdom is to be found in Heaven only?

Christianity tells us to be patient and wait, Jesus will return to finish the job and fulfill the prophecies.

Another interesting premise - what makes you think "the job" is NOT finished already? I'm seriously curious here.

a reply to: nenothtu

the Kingdom exists only in Heaven

That's not exactly what I said/meant. But, for today's Christians, Jesus is an ethereal being, not a real person, with the government on his shoulder, awing the nations that once despised him.

But, to get to the heart of the issue, we have to look at why the Hebrew people were/are expecting a Messiah in the first.place.

God was with man up until Noah, when he changed things up. Then it was just Noah, then we meet Abraham, and he is promised offspring like the numbers of stars in heaven. Then you get Jacob wandering around and getting disappointed, who gives us Isaac, who winds up having to take handouts from his kidnapped son, Joseph, in Egypt, where the Hebrew people settled in........until Moses.

They never asked for Moses, but God said "Set my people free", and he called them out of Egypt. Some more wandering around and disappointment and finally, the Israelites realize The Promised Land, flowing with milk and honey.

Until it wasn't.....

1 Samuel 8:5
They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.” But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king.

8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”

...................

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”

So, they got a king, King Saul. Then King David. David took 30,000 men to go get "The Ark of the Covenant". And then, David was feeling pretty mighty, and decided God deserved a bigger, nicer house.

2 Samuel 7
And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the Lord had given him rest round about from all his enemies;

2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains.

3 And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the Lord is with thee.

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the Lord came unto Nathan, saying,

5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the Lord, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?

Yeah.......

So God, miffed, mulls it over and decides that David won't be building God a house, but his son, Solomon, can do it.

And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

1 Kings 6:11 Now the word of the Lord came to Solomon, saying, 12 “If you obey My Laws and keep My Word, then I will keep My promise with you, which I spoke to your father David about this house you are building. 13 I will live among the sons of Israel. And I will not leave My people Israel alone.”

14 So Solomon built the house and finished it.

This was the first Jerusalem. God's kingdom on earth. "On earth, as it is in Heaven".

Until it wasn't.



The cycle continues...........Always looking for a king to go before us and fight our battles.

I could go on, but I hope you get the gist of what I'm saying. So, I'll leave it here right now.

a reply to: windword

so am I

a reply to: windword

You wrote QUOTE Are we supposed to believe that every time there is an exaltation, or every time the Psalms say's "I", "Me" or "He", it's referring to the Messiah? Every time someone complains of suffering, it's the Messiah?
We've already looked at Isaiah. Isaiah's character only fits the life and death of Jesus in a few forced verses, the rest doesn't fit him at all, unless you use a big shoehorn and cut off some toes! " UNQUOTE

Of course one cannot apply these verses to R. Yehoshua without a lot of fudging. But we're not talking about real prophecies here but rather the Jewish Midrashic process - which was an ancient form of Rabbinic hermeneutics. This is exactly what the earliest Christians did when they found out their expected Deliverer from the Roman yoke was arrested and crucified - they searched the scriptures for clues to help them cope...it is not something that has any merit for a Biblical scholar - the midrashic methodology was only brought up because that is what the early Christian churches did.

See Luke 24:25, 32, and especially Luke 24:44-46

"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved the Messiah to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached..."

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: windword

19 similarities does not a prophecy fulfil.

However there are over 600 prophecies concerning Jesus Christ. At his first visitation 353 have already been FULFILLED (not just similar but fulfilled), and another 300 plus await fulfilment at his second visitation at which time he will established the promised earthly Kingdom with Israel.

353 Prophecies Fulfilled

You are another who believes that kingdom is yet to come, and will be an "Earthly", carnal, kingdom - against what Jesus himself explicitly claimed? Are there a lot of Christians who believe such things?

a reply to: windword

Thank you. It was a fairly lengthy post, so I may have missed the part that specified God's Kingdom had to be an Earthly Kingdom - or are you saying you believe God is in the habit of giving folks what they want, rather than what they need? That's really the only way I can construe what you posted to be interpreted as you have, but it's entirely possible I missed something more concrete there.

I'm just trying to gain some insight into the mindset here, just as I'm trying to gain insight into the Christian mindset that thinks the same thing - but in the future, yet to happen, ain't quite there yet. I think that for the Christians the phrase "it is finished" ought to cover that, but, not being a Christian, what do I know?

a reply to: nenothtu

Thank you. It was a fairly lengthy post, so I may have missed the part that specified God's Kingdom had to be an Earthly Kingdom

I don't think that we are supposed to take these stories literally. In both Judaism and Christianity, everything is duality/two fold.

What is to be gleaned from the biblical narrative, in my opinion, is to stop looking for a "king" (Messiah) to fight your battles for you, die for your sins.....

You can't put "God" in a box, but God is everywhere and is manifest in everything, even boxes. So, yes, "God" always gives us what we want, take, make, demand, etc.

The "Kingdom" has always been within. But, mankind has always tried to establish "Heaven on Earth" from without and through force, citing God in every endeavor accomplished, lamenting God's absence in every failure.

a reply to: windword

Good morning. Thank you for your patience, as I have a life too.

The first thing I think needs elucidated are the references to Abraham's seed in Genesis. There are passages which are, in the Hebrew, collective singular, and then precisely simple singular. To break it down, seed" is singular in both meaning and form in two (Gen. 17 and 22) out of three (Gen. 15, 17 and 22) passages in which the language of "seed" appears in the context of a covenant or "promise". Genesis 22 is a singular following a precise incident.

Note that it is the earlier passages (Gen. 12 and 15) that use the word "seed" as a collective singular. Both these passages precede the promise of Isaac's birth. But as soon as Isaac is promised (Gen. 17) and thereafter (Gen. 22), the word "seed" is used a simple singular. So, from a redemptive-historical perspective, the collective singular use of the word was superseded by the simple singular use as soon as progressive revelation revealed the identity of the one seed

This is somewhat difficult to see from most modern translation where we associate English plurals with the word "seed." However, in Hebrew not only is the word "seed" singular in form, but the verbs and pronouns associated with it are also singular, indicating that "seed" is a simple singular and not a collective singular. In contrast to this, in both Genesis 12 and 15, the rest of the syntax is plural, indicating that "seed" is a collective singular in those passages.

In summary, Genesis itself makes the "one seed" argument. It sometimes speaks of the plurality of the descendants ("seed") that will spring from Abraham, and also of the individual ("seed") through whom these descendants will come (Genesis 17).

In Genesis 22 however, Christ is the one whom Isaac prefigured and the singular usage of "seed" is specific in nature and not in direct reference to Isaac or to a promise specifying Issac, it is unique in that it was the singular use following an event which showed faith rewarded by a substitution of commanded sacrifice.

I want to point out the nature of the God Abraham knew intimately from all their dealings together. God had a relationship with Abraham, talking to him, commanding him to obey this or that; Abraham knew God well enough to know His nature. Abraham, in this knowledge, had absolute faith that in the end God would supply a sacrifice in Isaac's stead, as evidenced by what Abraham specifically said;

Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

So, two kinds of faith were at work here. The first; Abraham trusted that God would not require such a sacrifice and second a willingness to obey God no matter the cost out of love for Him. Let's examine the first. When the Jews were sacrificing their children God said:

Jeremiah 7:31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

The highlight here is "something I did not command, nor did it ever enter my mind". The sacrifice of one's own children, is a thing not just not commanded by God, but not once even entering into the mind of God. God is never changing, His nature is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Therefore we can easily extrapolate that it never entered into God's mind either, that Isaac should ever be sacrificed as this is a thing which is an abomination to God, and Abraham knew that deep inside. Therefore, why would God command it then?

What the event showed - the reason for the singular seed that Genesis itself makes an argument for is the Messiah, and not only the Messiah, but that there will be, in a singular seed which is descended from Isaac, a substitution for sacrifice commanded by God. First in Genesis we have Abraham's decedents (collective singular), then we have nations (collective singular), then we have Isaac (simple singular), then we have another singular, following the event of sacrifice in which God replaced the commanded sacrifice, for a substitute God provided. Pointing us toward the reason for the blood line, from the specific bloodline it would come (i.e. not Ishmael but Issac), then the Messiah who would come from Isaac, showing a particular event with which we might gain understanding of the Messiah to come.

Lets go now, to the next point. A specific Messianic passage, accepted by Jewish scholars to be specific to the Messiah.

Genesis 49:10 - The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and to him shall the gathering of the people's be.

Let's examine this passage for our best understanding of the original language. The scepter shall not depart from Judah indicates here tribal rather than royal rank, and means that Judah would continue until the time indicated, to be a self-governed and/or legally-constituted tribe.

Nor a lawgiver from between his feet - we see here again, another reference to scepter but “lawgiver” has the support of all the ancient versions, and the Syriac has it as expounder—i.e., of the law.

between his feet is where the scepter rested traditionally in kings when they sat on their throne before assembly, but it can also mean descendants.

Until Shiloh come, in the Syriac it means "whose it is" if memory serves me correct, but is always used in the noun form and is seen among the scholars as being Messiah and to him shall the gathering of the people be, although gathering here can also be seen as obedience. People's indicates more than just Israel, but includes all nations.

The text clearly indicates that, in some sense, Judah (i.e., the Jews) would retain their sovereignty until the arrival of the Messiah, after which, at some point, that rule would be surrendered. The historical facts are these.

The substantial sovereignty of the nation never ceased until Herod Archelaus was removed from his position. Even when Judah was subject to other powers, it sustained a degree of autonomy, and mostly was ruled by Jewish administrators. There were “governors” (e.g., Zerubbabel, Ezra, Nehemiah), “high priests” under the Ptolemies and Seleucids (Greeks), and Hasmonaean priest-kings under whom Judah was temporarily independent of other powers.

The Romans gave the Jews their own king, Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1), who was an Idumean, though Jewish in religion. Herod’s wicked son, Archelaus, “reigned” over the Hebrews until he was deposed in A.D. 6 (Matthew 2:22). The Jews henceforth were governed by the Romans through a series of procurators, one of whom was Pontius Pilate. It thus is clear that by the time the Romans took direct control over the Jews, the Hebrew “ruling” power (“scepter”) was completely and permanently gone. “Shiloh” (Messiah) had come! His redemptive appearance is not awaiting the future.

With Genesis' own singular seed argument and the fact that the Jews lost any and all sense of tribal rule at the time the Romans took ruling power after the arrival of one who called themselves Messiah, we see a need to reexamine scripture like the suffering servant songs.

Out of space now.

a reply to: nenothtu

Don't confuse the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven.

We all know the kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom and it is with in.

We equally know the Heaven is a created place, the Kingdom of Heaven is the earthly Kingdom established by Christ when he comes, with the first thousand years being from the earthly Jerusalem.

After the Judgement and execution it upon Satan and Unbelieving man Rev 20, it will be established upon a new Earth, with a new heaven and from the New Jerusalem Rev 21-22.

Sorry to disappoint but not very many Christians believe what I just presented above. Very few indeed believe this as I do.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: nenothtu

Sorry to disappoint but not very many Christians believe what I just presented above. Very few indeed believe this as I do.

How is that when you can pack entire libraries with books and city after city chock full of churches full of those beliefs being propounded? I'd say it's far more Christians who believe that than one's who don't.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: nenothtu

Don't confuse the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven.

I don't think I do, but maybe. I believe there is only one Kingdom, and what various people call it is irrelevant to me. If there is to be unity in spirituality, I can see no logical reason for that house to be divided into two or more kingdoms.

We all know the kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom and it is with in.

We equally know the Heaven is a created place, the Kingdom of Heaven is the earthly Kingdom established by Christ when he comes, with the first thousand years being from the earthly Jerusalem.

After the Judgement and execution it upon Satan and Unbelieving man Rev 20, it will be established upon a new Earth, with a new heaven and from the New Jerusalem Rev 21-22.

I venture to guess that theology comes from an interpretation of Revelations, which various interpretations I am not very well versed in. There are Pre-Millenials, Post-Millenials, and even Amillenials, none of which I can subscribe to with a clear conscience. I guess you could say I'm a "Pan-Millenialist" - I believe it will all pan out as it is supposed to in the end, without my input, and so I don't use Revelations as a prognostication device.

Out of curiosity, why would "The Kingdom of Heaven" be housed on Earth in a physical realm?

Sorry to disappoint but not very many Christians believe what I just presented above. Very few indeed believe this as I do.

It may be a function of where one lives. Around here, the various sorts of Millenialists are at constant war with one another. It's my understanding that some fella named Schofield started the war, and then died and left the fighters in the matter to duke it out. Being a "Pan-Millenialist", I usually just sit the battles out, since I believe that the events allegorically described in Revelations are long passed, and have already occurred. But seriously - one cannot throw a rock around here without hitting one Christian or another willing to throw down over the timing of an Earthly kingdom that is never going to come, in my opinion. I believe it's already here, and has been for 2000 or so years... I just don't think it's borders are limited to Earth, nor are they all encompassing of every aspect of life on Earth - they are not physical borders at all, as carnally-minded folk understand "borders".

a reply to: Kitana

Many make the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven the same thing. I don't, Things that are different are not the same. This is why they need so many versions of a Bible so they can blend and confuse doctrines.