1 Corinthians 15, Where Does Paul Get His Info?

a reply to: windword

So for you it is ok to take what these men say without scepticism, criticism and doubts but it's OK to approach the Bible in that way.

Well I do believe the Preserved word of God is true.

a reply to: JackReyes

But since you came to this conversation asking us to use Scripture to explain Scripture that is what I have done.

No you have not. You've used partial scriptures to explain Paul's assertion, which were not scripture at the time of their writings, but have been adopted by Christians as THEIR scripture. But the the whole scripture you presented belies your case. So, you've turned to the New Testament and Paul's own reasoning to bolster your argument.

The Old Testament prophecies are NOT fulfilled through the biblical character of Jesus of Nazareth. There is no prophecy of a dying and rising messiah, whose kingdom exists, not on Earth, but in Heaven. Daniels Messiah as well as Isaiah's hero govern earthly kingdoms.

Christianity tells us to be patient and wait, Jesus will return to finish the job and fulfill the prophecies. The same, the Jewish people are also still waiting for their Messiah, not seeing the scriptures fulfilled through Jesus of Nazareth.

Funny that, how Christians tell the Jews, "Join us in battle and we will conquer the Earth together and bring down Zion, The New Jerusalem, from Heaven!" But, the Jewish people should tell the Christian political body, "Get thee behind me Satan" and reject their offer just as Jesus rejected Satan's offer to bow down and worship him in exchange for ownership of Earth's wealth.

The Messiah has not yet arrived, both by Jewish standards and Christian standards. Jesus remains as ethereal as the Angel of Lord. He is not governing in peace right now. The prophecies have not been fulfilled. Both bodies of believers await a "Coming".

a reply to: windword

That's okay. I disagree with you, and everything is written down here on record. I'll leave it at that.

I will give you this, you have a lot of valid points against the way Christendom thinks, it is full of false teachings, and anyone who understands that can sympathize with you to a point. At least we both are in agreement that Jesus is not God, and never claimed to be God.

Unfortunately you have not come to appreciate the need to believe in and put faith in him for salvation. For only through Jesus can we attain it. But everlasting life, not everyone has a heart disposed for it.

a reply to: JackReyes

Unfortunately you have not come to appreciate the need to believe in and put faith in him for salvation. For only through Jesus can we attain it. But everlasting life, not everyone has a heart disposed for it.

Like I said. You see Jesus in many things. I believe in those things.

We can agree to disagree from this point.

a reply to: windword

GENESIS 3:22

Behold, the man has become as one of "us" to know what is good and what is evil.

This is where it all went south and the fallin ones took over making man to believe they were God or The Prime Creator

There is no time space good evil right wrong light or darkness in the Fathers Kingdom. But if you must---Wear it down to the bone til you have had enough.

a reply to: windword

I am just curious, as I don't know what your thinking is here. But why do you suppose so many Jews started following Jesus. We got Christianity from Jewish people, who believed that Christ came in the person of Jesus.

So, why do you suppose that is, if you believe that Jesus was not prophesied about in the original Jewish texts?

a reply to: Kitana

We got Christianity from Jewish people, who believed that Christ came in the person of Jesus.

Not really. Most of the Christianity we have today reflects Paul's ideals, and Paul preached to and converted Pagan Gentiles. He preached against following the Torah and Jewish Law, even going to far as to say that Christians who circumcised themselves or their children lacked faith in Jesus Christ and were slaves to The Law. Even the resting on the Sabbath was forbidden in early Christiandom.

Canon 29

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.
www.newadvent.org...

a reply to: windword

You wrote QUOTE "One can only suppose that "Cephas" is Simon Peter. But, isn't Simon Peter one of the 12? If so, who is Cephas ? "

Kephah is 'The Rock' in Aramaic and must refer to Shimeon bar Yonah, aka Peter (ho Petros means The Rock in Greek).

Why Paul chose to separate Kephah from the 12 (or 11 if you discount Yehudah bar Shimeon, aka Judas Iscarioth) is probably an error for something like 'the rest of the 12' . It appears that 'the twelve' was a generic term for the inner circle (like the inner circle of 3, 'James', 'John' and 'Peter' who witness the raising of Jairius daughter or the Transfiguration etc.

Presumably we are to understand that 'Jesus' (Gk ho Iesous) after his execution by Rome was only 'manifested' to his believing followers, possibly including the 70 apostoloi and another larger group of followers ('more than 500 persons at once' = 70 x 7 ?) . Most of the time the verb for 'appear' is passive or middle in Greek ('appeared to' 'was manifested unto') as opposed to 'he saw', etc.

What we are to understand from this is possibly that it was not a typical thing you would see with your eyes ('he saw Jim at the store') but some kind of mystical vision ('he was manifested unto Kephah') which is not quite the same thing.

People don't tend to say things like 'Jim was manifested to me at the store' ; they would say "I saw Jim at the store..."

Perhaps the reason why Kephah is separated off from the '12' is that there was an early tradition of Kephah 'denying' Yeshua during the arrest/trial-hearing...?

a reply to: windword

Skip anything about Paul - I didn't ask anything about Paul.

I asked, specifically, if Jesus never fulfilled the role of prophecy found in the Jewish tradition, why did any Jews ever become a follower of Jesus and believe him to be Messiah, that is, in fact, where belief in and following of Jesus as the Messiah came from. From Jews. Even Paul was a Jew, but lets not get into his teachings.

Just answer my question; if Jesus did not fit the bill in any way as the Messiah prophesied in Jewish tradition then why were there Jews who believed He was the prophesied Messiah?

a reply to: Kitana

Are you talking about them, the Jews who followed Jesus, believing him to be "The Messiah" before or after his death and resurrection?

If you're referring to those who followed Jesus while he preached, I'd say that most thought of him as a great teacher. Perhaps some hoped him to be the prophesied conquering Messiah.

But there is no prophecy that has the Jewish Messiah dying, rising and then flying off to Heaven after sharing a few choice words of comfort. He was supposed to, according to prophecy, establish his kingdom on Earth and govern the nations.

Instead, Jesus remains an ethereal figure watching over us from his celestial abode.

a reply to: Sigismundus

That makes a lot sense! Thanks

a reply to: windword

I am not asking about anything other than - if what you say is something you truly believe, ie: that there is no torah prophesy that fits Jesus as Messiah in any way shape or form - then why do you suppose that there have been Jews who believed him to be the Messiah, both during his lifetime, and after his death and resurrection. There are even modern day Jews who have become Christian.

So, why do you suppose that is, if you don't think any of the Torah and Jewish tradition prophecies refer to Jesus?

a reply to: Kitana

There is not now, nor has there been in the past, anyone who thought that the "New Jerusalem" , "Zion" has been establish and is being governed by the Prince of Peace, right now, here on Earth. The lion is NOT laying down with the lamb.

Everyone, Jews and Christians alike, are still waiting for the fulfillment of the prophecies.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

a reply to: windword

So, what you are saying, is that you believe that many Jews see Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, however, to be fulfillment of Jewish texts' prophecies. (whether in whole or in part)

a reply to: Kitana

A lot of people believe things blindly, without critical thought. It's clear that Jesus doesn't fulfill the Old Testament prophecies. At least, not yet.

Now, to believe in an ethereal being that is an emination of a perfect god, watching over us, advocating for us.....that is what Jesus is, actually, to Christians. Just like the Angel of the Lord of the Old Testament was.

Jesus' supposed life, with all the miracles, his death, with earthquakes and walking dead, and his mysterious resurrection, have changed nothing in the world in which we live.

The Messiah is supposed to change the world.

a reply to: windword

Jesus specifically said that His Kingdom was not of this world (John 18:36)

He also said "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." And He said that, when explaining His death and the laying down of His life. John 10:17

So, His life, death, and resurrection, does not negate in any way, the fact it must have been foretold in Jewish scripture, because many Jews have seen Him as the Messiah foretold in prophesy. Unless, you believe that all Jews who believed, are simply crazy to have ever seen in Jesus any aspect of Him as Messiah having been foretold in Jewish scripture.

Do you think all the Jewish Christians throughout history are simply insane for believing Jesus to be fulfillment of prophecy?

a reply to: Kitana

Jesus specifically said that His Kingdom was not of this world

Then he isn't the Jewish Messiah.

In Jewish tradition, we were always redeemed and taken back home to God after our death, providing we were faithful to HIM during our lives.

Hosea 6:2
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us. 2"He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day,

The Jewish Messiah promises:

Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore.

Isaiah 11:6
Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist. And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox.…

Sounds great! But it hasn't happened yet.

a reply to: windword

Why don't we begin at the beginning then, instead of the end - if you wish to discuss texts concerning the Messiah. If you agree to begin at the beginning, then I will begin discussing from the beginning tomorrow, is this okay with you?

I say this, because it makes literally no sense to try and begin at the end, so if you like, I will post tomorrow and we can start at the beginning.

a reply to: Kitana

Sure. I'd be interested in hearing about your "beginning", tomorrow.

a reply to: windword

the word "beginning" in the preserved word is a divine cross reference that connect the beginning the Middle and the end of the Preserved word together.