1 Corinthians 15, Where Does Paul Get His Info?

originally posted by: [post=20394971]windword

This can't be Jesus of Nazareth, because this hasn't happened. The Jewish people are still waiting for ZION, The New Jerusalem.

The scriptures cover this point.....the Jews will one day look on Him who they pierced ect.

a reply to: JackReyes

Of course Jesus isn't Almighty God. That makes no sense. In fact, it wasn't until Jesus was raised from the dead that Jehovah kindly gave him the name that was above all other names. (Giving him his portion among the mighty -other stalwart faithful men who died true to God.)

Okay, so you're not a Trinitarian. However, the only way these prophecies work is if the Jesus comes back, some 2000 years later, as a deity, not a man, to finish the job and fulfill these prophecies.

From your link:

To be begotten means to be created. And Jesus definitely was God's only-begotten, that is, the only created, son of God. Jehovah God is not a begotten creature, as he was never created. His Son, whom he begot, as the first of all creation, was created.

The New Testament says that Jesus was the first of all creation, in John 1. The Old Testament says no such thing. "Let there be light", taken as the birth of your god, exists only in the imagination of Christians. In the meantime, creationists will tell you that "Let there be light" represents the "Big Bang". Is Jesus also the Big Bang?

Israel was God's First Son, so Jesus couldn't be his only begotten son.

Exodus 4:22
Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,

Isaiah 43:6
I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

And you still didn't even touch on the last scripture quoted you that tells you very very directly the Messiah would be cut off.

Daniel 9:26
"So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Cut off and have nothing. That sounds like being cut off from material possession, allowance, daddy's wallet. Was Jesus cut off, or did he choose a ministry of poverty?

Who are the "people of the prince who is to come? The Romans?

Cut off? Like lepers were cut off?

King Uzziah was a leper to the day of his death; and he lived in a separate house, being a leper, for he was cut off from the house of the LORD.

Do you understand that there are walking dead in Jewish theology, people who are "cut off" from the living, or from the House of the Lord? That there are 2 kinds of death and 2 kinds of life? Surely you must, because Christianity also teaches this.

Luke 9:60
Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

Isaiah's character lived his life being cut off from the land of the living, just like the Hebrew who were conquered and held in captivity in Babylon at the time, bearing the shame of human iniquity. But, in the end, Isaiah's character is spared 2nd death, sees his children grow up and bears the weight of government on his shoulders.

Isaiah's character was the personification of the Nation of Israel.

Is Jesus the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53?

“Israel, the servant of God, suffered as a humiliated individual.”
~ The New English Bible, Oxford Study Edition

“…In the original historical context, however, the servant appears to have been exiled Israel. God’s deliverance and exaltation of Israel will astound the nations who formerly despised this disfigured slave.”
~ The Harper Collins Study Bible

“The Lord speaks, promising that the servant Israel, although disfigured because of the agonies of exile, will be exalted so that nations will be astonished.”
~ The New Interpreter’s Study Bible

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: windword


Great question Windword. Thats Jonah 3 days in the deep and as Klass said of the other, probably to do with the sacrificial laws for lamb or scape goat.

You're the first person to bring up Jonah. Star for you!

But, was it Jewish tradition to believe that Jonah died in the belly of whale and then was brought back to life, resurrected, like Jesus supposedly was? Or, did Jonah suffer through the ordeal and live to fulfill God's command?

a reply to: windword

Even in Genesis we are shown that Jehovah God is talking with other spirit creatures such as himself. For example, no doubt talking to his only begotten son now known as Jesus Christ he said:

(Genesis 1:26) . . .Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,. . .

That the Messiah was foretold in the Hebrew Scriptures there is no doubt.

In fact before Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden Jehovah gave this prophecy:

(Genesis 3:15) And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”

That prophecy foretold the coming of the Messiah, and the spiritual warfare that has been being waged ever sense between the seed of the woman (Jesus Christ), and the seed of the serpent (religious leaders of the world).

But that Jesus was not revealed until his arrival, in all of his glory does not mean he was not foretold, nor does it mean he did not fulfill scripture.

In fact what it is is sacred secret that God has withheld in his wisdom for long lasting times, and only, by means of his son sent into the world, made it made manifest to those whom he loved:

(Romans 16:25) . . .Now to Him who can make you firm according to the good news I declare and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the sacred secret that has been kept in silence for long-lasting times


As far as Genesis 1, those creative days are referring to the preparation of earth for human habitation. Only Genesis 1:1 refers to the creation of the universe itself and it merely states this:

(Genesis 1:1) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


Another scripture, referring to Jesus in prophetic terms, and his Father, Jehovah's side, as a master worker, as Jehovah used his son in the creation of all things is in Proverbs:

(Proverbs 8:23-31) . . .From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth, When there were no springs overflowing with water. 25 Before the mountains were set in place, Before the hills, I was brought forth, 26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields Or the first clods of earth’s soil. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there; When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters, 28 When he established the clouds above, When he founded the fountains of the deep, 29 When he set a decree for the sea That its waters should not pass beyond his order, When he established the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; 31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men.

a reply to: JackReyes

Even in Genesis we are shown that Jehovah God is talking with other spirit creatures such as himself. For example, no doubt talking to his only begotten son now known as Jesus Christ he said:

(Genesis 1:26) . . .Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,. . .

No doubt that's Jesus, in your (Christian) imagination. I, personally, don't take the story literally, and see the gods of Genesis as more of a "Me, Myself and I".

(Genesis 3:15) And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”

Let's parse this sentence. "Your (Eve's) Offspring will crush his (The Serpent's) head and you (The Serpent) will bruise his (The Offspring's) heal.

When did Jesus (Eve's Offspring) get bit by a serpent on the heal, and then smash the serpents head?

That the Messiah was foretold in the Hebrew Scriptures there is no doubt.

King Saul was the first Messiah. David was the second. Solomon was a Messiah and so was Cyrus the Great.

Regarding your Proverbs citation, according to the Book of Jubilees, which was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls, Jewish tradition held that God created all the spirits first, then solid earth.

For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before him -the angels of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the angels of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer and of all the spirits of his creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide , and the light, dawn and day, which He hath prepared in the knowledge of his heart.

And thereupon we saw His works, and praised Him, and lauded before Him on account of all His works; for seven great works did He create on the first day.
www.pseudepigrapha.com...

a reply to: windword

I understand what you are conveying, and I have the choice to accept it or reject it as you do anything I post.

I highlighted

shalt make his soul an offering for sin

because it looks strangely like

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

, and

he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days

very much embodies his resurrection from the dead.

I have observed from your many Threads and Posts these few facts of your belief of the Bible you hold in your hand. (forgive me if I have made any mistakes in understanding you, after all we are human).
1) you don't believe that God preserved his words as promised in Psalm 12:6,7. As such the bible you quote from regularly is missing many words, phrases, verses and chapters.
2) you don't believe any of the writings of Paul, you believe he is an heretick and a fraud. If it were up to you you would take out all his books/letters from the Bible.
3) you don't believe much of the Bible but show your contempt for it
4) you approach the preserved Bible with scepticism, criticism and doubts.
5) you don't look to scripture to bring out truth for your life but to bring out inconstancies and errors that you can show the world and Christians in particularly they are wrong and you are right.

Like I said many times, if you rightly divide you will find very few problems. Yet you have not even tried to follow it because you don't trust Paul's writings.

So please indulge me a moment and let me post this simple outline of right division of the Preserved words of God.

Genesis-Exodus Historical Narrative of the line of man and Israel
Leviticus -Deuteronomy - The doctrines for the Nation of Israel known as the law of Moses
Joshua - Malachi - History of Israel and its fall and dispersions and Israel's rejection of God the Father
Matthew-John The Doctrines for Israel under the Gospel of the Kingdom, as taught by John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and the Apostles. And Israel's rejection of Jesus Christ as their king and Messiah.
Acts -Narrative of the rejection of Holy Ghost and the Gospel of the Kingdom by Israel, and the calling out of Paul and the History of his ministry of the Gospel of the grace of God to all men.
Romans - Establishment of the Doctrines for the Body of Christ during church age under the Gospel of the Grace of God
1 Corinthians - Philemon -Ministry of Paul to the body of Christ during the church age under the Gospel of the Grace of God.
Hebrews - Establishment of the Doctrines for Israel in the Great Tribulation once again under the gospel of the Kingdom
James -Revelation 19 The teaching and Ministry of the Apostles to Israel during the tribulation Under the Gospel of the Kingdom, and the presentation of the Everlasting Gospel by and Angel.
Revelation 20-22 the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom of Israel (must see last part of Zech 14 for some of what goes on during the Millennial kingdom of Israel). The Judgement of all men, the coming Down of the New Jerusalem a city is maker and founder is God, the promise for which Abraham waited for in his day and never saw. Third Warning from God not to add to the word after the Book of Revelation.

This is not exhaustive or very detailed but it does give a synopsis of years of study with right division of the preserved Bible. It doesn't solve all the problems of the scriptures or answer all questions but there is far less confusion when right division is followed when studying the Bible.

a reply to: windword

It is a prophecy and it is not concerning Eve windword.

The woman of the prophecy in Genesis 3:15 is God's celestial organization. Jesus did not come from earth, rather he came from heaven, where he resided at his Father's side, long before he came to earth.

Here are a few key scriptures to show you who that woman in prophecy really was. In this prophetic drama, Sarah, Abraham's wife represents the woman in Genesis 3:15:

(Galatians 4:22-26) . . .For example, it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; 23 but the one by the servant girl was actually born through natural descent and the other by the free woman through a promise. 24 These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women mean two covenants, the one from Mount Siʹnai, which bears children for slavery and which is Haʹgar. 25 Now Haʹgar means Siʹnai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

So we see that the natural nation of Israel was born into slavery (to the Mosaic Law) and Hagar,the servant girl is his mother. But Sarah, the free woman is "our mother," that is, of the anointed Christian congregation. She is the woman in prophecy at Genesis 3:15.

Concerning that prophetic woman we see the birth of the kingdom in Revelation 12:

(Revelation 12:1, 2) . . .Then a great sign was seen in heaven: A woman was arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of 12 stars, 2 and she was pregnant. And she was crying out in her pains and in her agony to give birth.

As far as the "heel" wound Satan gave Jesus Christ, the foretold seed of the woman, this happened when he came to earth and he died for our sins. It was a "heel" wound in the fact that it was only temporary, for Jehovah God raised his son back to life, as an immortal spirit creature, and kindly gave him the name above all names, and had him sit at his right hand in heaven until he was crowned king of God's kingdom government.

By means of that kingdom government Jesus will crush and put an end to all human governments, and will eventually even break to pieces Satan the Devil and his wicked spirit angels that follow him. Thus the head wound given to the serpent, Satan, by the seed of the woman: Jesus Christ:

(Revelation 20:1-3, 10) . . .And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while...And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur. . .


As for the anointed in Israel, of course all of the king's that Jehovah placed on the throne were anointed. But they too understood that there was one greater than them that would come, a Messiah greater than Moses. And none of them fulfilled that. In fact David in reference to Jesus Christ referred to him as "my lord":

(Psalm 110:1) . . .Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

a reply to: JackReyes

Is not the woman in Revelation is Israel, the twelve stars over her head the 12 tribes.

There is a statue of this in front of the Vatican. They think is it Mary

a reply to: JackReyes

The woman of the prophecy in Genesis 3:15 is God's celestial organization. Jesus did not come from earth, rather he came from heaven, where he resided at his Father's side, long before he came to earth.

We all resided in Heaven, with The Father, before coming to Earth. And, to the father we will return.

Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us. 2"He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him.

Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

Who was the lord? You say Jesus, but Hebrew tradition says it's The Angel of The Lord.

Joshua 5:13
Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us or for our adversaries?"

He said, "No; rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the LORD." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, "What has my lord to say to his servant?"…

The captain of the LORD'S host said to Joshua, "Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy."

Zachariah 3:1
And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Was Jesus the incarnation of The Angel of the Lord? Not likely. Jesus was tempted by Satan. The Angel of the Lord is the Judge who hears Satan's accusations against Joshua (us).

Psalms 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Jesus died like a man. Would the Angel of Lord die like a man? Not likely.

For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

The stone was laid before Joshua. The Angel of the Lord removes the iniquity.

As far as the rest of your post, the New Testament doesn't prove the New Testament.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

No indeed. That woman is Jehovah's heavenly organization. It refers to nothing earthly at all.

Just as the struggle in the beginning started in the spirit realm, beyond human control. So it will end there.

Look closely at the prophecy:

(Revelation 12:1-4) . . .Then a great sign was seen in heaven: A woman was arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of 12 stars, 2 and she was pregnant. And she was crying out in her pains and in her agony to give birth. 3 Another sign was seen in heaven. Look! A great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems; 4 and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child.

Here we see Jehovah's celestial organization preparing for the coronation of Jesus Christ in heaven. The twelve stars would be the organizational arrangement in heaven. (12 is a symbolic number you see in Scripture and especially Revelation to refer symbolically to organizational structures).

Mary could not have been the woman, because she is a descendant of Adam, and a sinner. She was NOT in heaven when Jesus was crowned king. I know that many people in Christendom believe that all good people go to heaven, but even Jesus himself said that NO ONE has ascend to heaven, accept for one, that one that came down from heaven (referring to himself of course):

(John 3:13) . . .Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

In prophecy in Daniel you see Jesus gain access to Jehovah's throne, where the coronation ceremony takes place, and he is crowned king of God's heavenly government:

(Daniel 7:13, 14) 13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.

That was the birth of the kingdom foretold in Revelation 12. It happens during the time of the end, and before the second coming of Jesus, in his kingdom power as a powerful spirit ruler with tremendous power and authority, not only over the earth, although the earth has been given him as his inheritance, but even over the entire universe. Only Jehovah is greater than him in authority and power.

a reply to: windword

Of course Jesus was the "angel of the lord." And no, as a spirit he could not die in such a fashion. But he emptied his spirit body and humbled himself and became a man.

Look to whom did Jehovah say concerning any of the other angels:

(Psalm 2:7) . . .Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father.

Who?

It was only to the coming Messiah. Jesus Christ.

By means of him God will crush to pieces all governments of the earth, for he has the legal right to rule as king over the earth, for Jehovah gave it to him by means of an inheritance:

(Psalm 2:8, 9) . . .Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your possession.  9 You will break them with an iron scepter, And you will smash them like a piece of pottery.”

(Daniel 2:44) “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,

a reply to: ChesterJohn

1) you don't believe that God preserved his words as promised in Psalm 12:6,7. As such the bible you quote from regularly is missing many words, phrases, verses and chapters.

No. The Bible is NOT the preserved word of God. It's a record of Jewish literature and a guide to their religion.

2) you don't believe any of the writings of Paul, you believe he is an heretick and a fraud. If it were up to you you would take out all his books/letters from the Bible.

Christianity is based more on the writing of Paul than on the teaching of one Jesus of Nazareth. I believe that Paul's religion degrades Judaism and fails to reflect the actual teachings of the biblical Jesus.

3) you don't believe much of the Bible but show your contempt for it

Wrong. I believe that the Old Testament is an allegorical representation on the souls plight and earthly euphoria. I believe the New Testament is a condensed version of Old Testament thought. None of it is to be taken literally, but used a map to find the way home from within.

4) you approach the preserved Bible with scepticism, criticism and doubts.

Everyone should.

5) you don't look to scripture to bring out truth for your life but to bring out inconstancies and errors that you can show the world and Christians in particularly they are wrong and you are right.

This is what I think.



If you take the time to watch the video, you'll understand where I'm coming from. If not. Oh well!

Also, for your consideration and understanding

a reply to: windword

So you are Jewish?

a reply to: JackReyes

Of course Jesus was the "angel of the lord." And no, as a spirit he could not die in such a fashion. But he emptied his spirit body and humbled himself and became a man.

Ancient Egyptians believed that Osiris existed in this realm through water. Everywhere there was water, there was Osiris.

Who am I to tell and ancient Egyptian that water isn't the deity Osiris?

Christians see Jesus everywhere. Jesus is The Light, The Morning Star. The Rose of Sharon, the Sign of the Cross and the Sign of the Fish. He's the Lion of Judah and the sacrificial Lamb. Jesus was in the Garden of Eden. Jesus was the Angel of the Lord. He's the Son of Man and He's the Son of God.

But really, all we know of a man named Jesus is what is in the Gospels. And, that narrative must be left to the interpretation of each individual and their personal understanding of the message.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: windword

So you are Jewish?

Both of father's parents were Jewish immigrants/refugees from Poland. However, my mother (RIP) turned to Christian fundamentalism while I was a baby. My father (RIP) was not a Christian and was about as Jewish as Bernie Sanders.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: JackReyes

Of course Jesus was the "angel of the lord." And no, as a spirit he could not die in such a fashion. But he emptied his spirit body and humbled himself and became a man.

Ancient Egyptians believed that Osiris existed in this realm through water. Everywhere there was water, there was Osiris.

Who am I to tell and ancient Egyptian that water isn't the deity Osiris?

Christians see Jesus everywhere. Jesus is The Light, The Morning Star. The Rose of Sharon, the Sign of the Cross and the Sign of the Fish. He's the Lion of Judah and the sacrificial Lamb. Jesus was in the Garden of Eden. Jesus was the Angel of the Lord. He's the Son of Man and He's the Son of God.

But really, all we know of a man named Jesus is what is in the Gospels. And, that narrative must be left to the interpretation of each individual and their personal understanding of the message.

You are no one to concern yourself with false pagan deities, neither am I. Yet Jehovah took it upon himself to humble a lot of Egypt's gods when he sent the 10 plagues against Pharaoh, to totally humiliate his false demon gods, in fact he said that was why he allowed Pharaoh's heart to grow hard:

(Exodus 9:15, 16) . . .For by now I could have thrust my hand out to strike you and your people with a devastating plague, and you would have been wiped out from the earth. 16 But for this very reason I have kept you in existence: to show you my power and to have my name declared in all the earth.

As for Jesus and his place in Holy Scripture of truth, inspired by the true God Jehovah. All Scripture and all prophecy is concerning Jesus. Jesus is what inspires prophecy:

(2 Corinthians 1:20) . . .For no matter how many the promises of God are, they have become “yes” by means of him. . . .

(Revelation 19:10) . . .For the witness concerning Jesus is what inspires prophecy.”

(Revelation 19:10) . . .At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! I am only a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing concerning Jesus. Worship God! For the witness concerning Jesus is what inspires prophecy.”

a reply to: JackReyes

You are no one to concern yourself with false pagan deities, neither am I.

The point is that you, nor I, are ones to judge whose deities are false. Egyptians saw Osiris in water, and water is everywhere and a necessity of live. Christians see Jesus in everything and call him Living Water and the Bread of Life, among many other names. I don't believe in Jesus, but I believe in life, light, water, bread, etc.

It makes no sense to me, nor is it validated in any Old Testament scripture, that the Angel of The Lord, incarnated as a man meant to be murdered, as a blood sacrifice to his master, for the sake of our imperfection.

You see Jesus in Old Testament scripture. Many don't, myself included.

a reply to: windword

I agree, we are no one. I think you are talking in circles now. I don't disagree with that. I'm just trying to gently readjust a lot of your thinking. I don't mean to be rude. But since you are asking the questions, and showing me your reasoning, I am trying to use reasoning back to help you understand things better.

And it does not make sense that Jesus would be incarnate. In fact the very idea that he was a "god" or even an angel incarnate is never taught in scripture.

We are clearly shown that he was transferred from Jehovah's side as his first-born and only begotten spirit son in heaven, to the womb of Mary and was born a human child. And was raised as a human, and became a man, although unlike any other man, because he was perfect.

So you see he could not have been god or even an angel incarnate. He was actually a human. Scripture never claims he was an incarnation of anything spiritual.

But I am explaining so many things to you, and you are jumping from theme to theme so quick, that the little portions of truth that you are getting, I don't know if you are assimilating, as you are not taking the time to meditate upon them, and certain scriptures you are shown that totally disrupts your arguments you gloss over and ignore entirely.

I don't know how you will come to an understanding of things correctly if you continue like that.

a reply to: JackReyes

I am trying to use reasoning back to help you understand things better.

Your reasoning requires faith that these characters of the Old Testament were really Jesus, before he was born of a virgin, and all that.

We are clearly shown that he was transferred from Jehovah's side as his first-born and only begotten spirit son in heaven,

That's what the New Testament asserts. The Old Testament asserts no such thing. The New Testament doesn't prove itself. The Old Testament tells us that Israel is God's first born son. Is the Old Testament wrong?

But I am explaining so many things to you, and you are jumping from theme to theme so quick, that the little portions of truth that you are getting, I don't know if you are assimilating, as you are not taking the time to meditate upon them, and certain scriptures you are shown that totally disrupts your arguments you gloss over and ignore entirely.

You brought up the Garden of Eden and Daniel, in trying to prove Paul's assertion of Jesus being the Jewish Messiah, dying for our sins and being resurrected. Since there is no one or two scriptures that prove Paul's assertion, we have to jump all over place, in the Old Testament, searching for clues, in trying to piece a puzzle of two beliefs (Judaism and Christianity) together.

a reply to: windword

Well, I took the liberty to use Scripture to reason with you, since you are trying to use Scripture to refute it.

And you are correct, it does take faith to believe what Scripture states. But not a blind faith, we can prove to ourselves that it could not have been just any works of man.

But since you came to this conversation asking us to use Scripture to explain Scripture that is what I have done.

With people who don't want to reason with scripture, I won't. And to those who have no faith, but a willing to reason, I would start by helping them to understand God's word is truth, even if that takes time, and means explaining why we can trust it.

And as for prophecy, not everyone can understand it. It does take faith in God and a humble heart for it to be revealed to him.

But even Scripture states that in the last days many would rove about to and fro in Scripture and God's word would become clearly understandable to the righteous, while the wicked will continue in their wickedness and not understand anything:

(Daniel 12:4) “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.”


(Daniel 12:9, 10) . . .: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.