FBI vs. Apple

Why would we even know something like this?

Why would this be in the news?

a reply to: netbound

It is not about their tool kit, or their ability.

Post Snowden, although the government of the United States still teabags its own constitution every day of the week by having mass surveillance infrastructure at all, the FBI have certain...responsibilities. They have to look better than the NSA, keep as much of the illusion (that they are not merely one hand on a many limbed beast) going as possible, keep as many people believing that they are legit and that their methods are based on, and in support of the rule of law, and the freedoms and rights that everyone is supposed to have.

They are no better, but hamstrung as they are by their role in all of this, when compared with the likes of the NSA and the CIA, they have to operate with cooperation, rather than simply finessing the data they want. It's a shell game really. It's not as if these phones can hide from mass surveillance techniques after all. There ARE ways in, and around these security features, but using those workarounds is a hell of a lot less explainable than it would be, if they used a backdoor given them by the companies involved. They want to make it look as if the corporations they are dealing with, believe in the validity of their position, and are prepared to work with them, splitting up the blame for the privacy removal that it constitutes, drawing fire away from the bigger picture, as per usual.

The main reason I think is Apple don't fancy having to keep creating new versions of the iOS for every police force in the world as once they've done it every plod will want the ability and suddenly people will not feel secure with their iDevice and buy someone elses product which will seriously hit their product line especially in emerging markets like China.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

I know this is true. But it's so scary...
There is no place for security. You can hide nothing. Everything and everyone is under surveillance.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
Let's not forget that the regular police can crack into an iPhone if they want anyway. If you're arrested and your phone taken away, it's almost 100% certain your phone is going to be plugged into a police station computer and its contents downloaded and analyzed.

They can crack SIM cards, social media passwords, get all your SMS text messages, phone logs, contacts, pictures ... everything. When and *IF* you get your phone back, it may magically be "water damaged" to hide the fact that all your data was stolen and copied to a police computer.

I've seen it happen with my own two eyes.

So, IMO this whole thing is nothing more than a psyop from Apple OR the FBI to judge public opinion and see what/how people think about backdoors for national security/law enforcement. Apple might want to see how their customers react by releasing the letter...the FBI might have asked Apple to do it so they can also see how people will respond.

In any case, the NSA can crack/hack anything they want and all electronic communication is slurped up by them anyway. If they wanted it, they can have it. This is such a big load of BS.

It's all theater and drama folks, nothing more.

Exactly this!!!!

I no longer work in the Tech industry since so many human rights are violated. I honestly cannot install Windows 10 and say, this is the best privacy aware operating system ever. If you sell Microsoft products it is either with them or being their enemy.

In China, Microsoft for example co-operates in the hunt at Falun Gong members a religion not allowed like the Dalai Lama from Tibet.

Since I have seen Microsoft pays around 900 million dollars to journalist to start with a year just to brainwash people that they do not cooperate with the police, I think this Apple FBI thing is just a Show.

And about those crackers, you cannot become a member of the FBI if you even have smoked for example 1 marihuana cigarette.

From all I have seen in the Tech Industry, this is all a Show, yeah sure the FBI unable to get into a phone? Sure, looks nice in the newspapers. The truth is, the FBI would just torture someone to give a password instead of calling help from Apple. If they really need your fingerprint they would simply force your finger to be scanned with the fingerprint reader.

a reply to: Stevemagegod

Apple is showing some much needed integrity from a corporation. It is rare these days and in this particular instance I say, 'bravo'.

Can someone please explain to me why Apple couldn't do this in a case by case type scenario?

This tech talk is over my level of understanding to when it comes to encryption and cracking these devices..

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
Let's not forget that the regular police can crack into an iPhone if they want anyway. If you're arrested and your phone taken away, it's almost 100% certain your phone is going to be plugged into a police station computer and its contents downloaded and analyzed.

Up to iOS8ish this is basically true.

Cellebrite / UFED will take most phones to the cleaners for example. This is not true regarding iOS9 / current gen iphones which have encryption which even the manufacturer doesn't have access to.

They can crack SIM cards

True.

social media passwords

File carving for the win.

get all your SMS text messages, phone logs, contacts, pictures ...

Usually. Some forms of encryption make it harder.

everything.

Not always true.

Particularly with recent model iphones you have to do a logical image, you can't get a physical image to recover deleted files etc ...

When and *IF* you get your phone back, it may magically be "water damaged" to hide the fact that all your data was stolen and copied to a police computer.

Never seen this. Not a regular thing in my experience.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
I'm not linking to the forensic software, but the software exits. The police have it. It doesn't matter if you have a PIN number or whatever -- they can crack into your phone in a few minutes and see everything.

It's not secret, the FBI uses cellebrite as a vendor.

You can't use cellebrite / UFED to bypass a locked iOS9 device within minutes or obtain a physical image of that device.

This isn't uncommon either. Vendors are taking increasingly longer amounts of time to bypass or exploit devices. These things take time.

Things you can't do with a current gen iphone:

* Pull out the storage and copy it ... it's reliant on the phones hardware to decrypt its own data, and the encryption key isn't stored at the user level so you can't carve it or pull it from memory
* Just copy it ... the data is encrypted, and it would take years to decrypt without some other assistance
* Plug it into a magic police computer that captures all the things
* Overwriting the boot loader doesn't work either, though yes it is a sound practice

Open invitation, crack a locked current gen iphone, take a physical image and send Pinke a U2U with the method. Will supply plane tickets and hulu hoop party for your trouble.

a reply to: Pinke

Ok, I just cracked mine... But, before I show how I did this, i will need more information about this hulu hoop party you speak of... I've been burned in the past..

I wonder if the gov. already knows how to do this, but is asking Apple as a cover up, so that Apple can be looked as the bad/good guy...just a thought.

a reply to: jhn7537

Putting the pin in with your index finger does nor count. Nor does your thumb, pinky or other pointing devices. In fact no appendage may be touching the screening during your hackzzoring procedure. Also a physical image is not a crayon drawing.

Party will consist of at least one hulu hoop per a guest and a money pit to bathe in. Unfortunately due to inflation I'll have to convert it into another currency than the dollar, but even after this we will still have enough to go to disneyland twice.

originally posted by: jhn7537
Can someone please explain to me why Apple couldn't do this in a case by case type scenario?

This tech talk is over my level of understanding to when it comes to encryption and cracking these devices..

In USA Today an apple spokesperson is quoted saying they can do it to a specific phone by uploading new firmware to it.

John McAfee Offers to Decrypt San Bernardino iPhone for Free


Using an obscure law, written in 1789 — the All Writs Act — the US government has ordered Apple to place a back door into its iOS software so the FBI can decrypt information on an iPhone used by one of the San Bernardino shooters.

thefreethoughtproject.com...

originally posted by: thedigirati
seems I read somewhere on the net today that they physically "pop" a fuse on the hardware after coding to prevent this,or maybe it's on the new phones. As if part of the decryption is in the serial numbers of the chipset or something like that?

Not exactly. The first thing is to know that, not that long ago, Apple made a significant change to the iPhone that moved key security features out of "software" and into "hardware" - specifically a secure chip (a coprocessor called the Security Enclave) tasked with protecting the content. I'm not sure if the target phone uses the older or the newer system.

The older software system used to count each failed attempt to log in. Depending on the settings chosen by the user, after 10 failed attempts the phone would wipe the data and reset to factory default. Some hacker somewhere demonstrated a method for forcing the phone to shut down before the failed attempt was recorded, effectively allowing unlimited attempts to log in - which would allow for brute force "guessing" of the password.

Apple addressed this by introducing an update (still in software at this stage) that recorded a failure BEFORE the user had the opportunity to provide a password.

Then, Apple moved the system completely out of code and into a microchip. That chip contains all the necessary information to encrypt and secure the content on the phone, and is (by design) exceptionally difficult to fiddle. Introducing new code to the operating system has no effect on the chip. The chip can't be updated without providing it with the security details that match the details stored inside the chip. It's essentially a closed system that - by design - cannot be accessed just by writing nifty little computer programs. On top of everything else, the password you provide is salted with a 256bit key unique to the device and hardcoded into the chip. It also means you have to access the data through the phone, because even if you can guess the password you still won't know the 256bit key that it gets combined with.

While there will be plenty of people dismissing all of this with "Oh the NSA can do anything"... perhaps they can, but it's not guaranteed. This is a seriously, seriously secure system. The entire point of the system (according to some) is so that Apple can avoid getting dragged into this kind of situtation. They've built a safe that even they can't open specifically to stop people asking them to open it in the first place. Forgot your password? Tough luck.

So, if the target iPhone is an older model, Apple could conceivably write software that would disable the login counter. This would enable investigators to "brute force" the password by using a computer to test the millions of possible combinations. If it's a new phone, it might be simply impossible to write software to change the behaviour of the Security Enclave chip - remember, the chip is only going to allow updates if the user has already provided the correct security pin, so how are you going to introduce any kind of hack into the chip?

Just to clarify, if using the 4-number pin for access, that's only 10,000 possibilities. If you can get rid of the login counter, that's easy-peasy!

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Mystic.....u are 100% correct. Your local pd can and does do these things. I would think this is common knowledge. Just like you said, psy- op.........

See what's going on over here...lookie SEE.....no, don't look that WAY....u can't know what is going on over there........!

Good for Apple. Finally someone standing up to our over reaching government.

Here is a link to video and transcript of a "Demoncacy Now" segment on the subject with people who know what they are talking about and what is at stake.'

www.truth-out.org...

I think the FBI simply wants it on record that Apple gave the government the access code. I am sure the NSA could brute force a phone if they chose to.