How Bernie pays for his proposals

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: ExNihiloRed

The problem is we are not reaping what we sowed. We are reaping what the baby boomers sowed, in allowing big money to hijack our political system and government, and letting robber barons roll back all the progress the labor movement accomplished, and allowing big money to deregulate itself through bribery and corruption.

I meant from here forward. I'm not going to argue with you. I won't change your mind, and you won't change my mind. If you really feel strongly about a movement or candidate go volunteer for them and stop wasting your time arguing on ATS. You'll have a better chance of having a meaningful impact.'

I made it clear in another post, I am spent with the political back-and-forth on ATS because there is no budging in anyone's point of view. I am probably no better in my stubborn political beliefs.

a reply to: ExNihiloRed

I think people are voting with their heads and using very simple logic. It breaks down like this:

Choices are:
Trump
Cruz
Rubio
Sanders
Clinton

One of those will be the next president. Even if you don't vote, one of them will still be the next president because others voted for one of them. Therefore who do you choose??

Given those choices people are picking Sanders. Some because they like him. Some because they just don't like everyone else more than they don't like Sanders.

You see, a vote for Sanders might be a vote for Sanders because you think he's the best. Or it could just be a vote for him because a vote for any of the others is even more horrifying.

That's not choosing with your heart or feelings. That is logically eliminating your choices until only one is left because you don't like the other options.

That's why these arguments aren't working. Because all they do is attack Sanders but they don't offer another better option. Until you can offer something better don't expect anyone to change.

It's like being stranded in the ocean and swimming toward a life boat in the distance while being told, "Don't swim to that boat, you won't like it." But it doesn't matter since everywhere else is just ocean and that boat, regardless of what it might hold which is unknown at this point, is better than just drowning in the ocean. Telling people not to go there isn't helping them because it's not a boat, a raft, a life jacket or even a water wing. It's just a bunch of words that don't change anyone's options.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: buster2010

It appears what some people can't seem to grasp.

A millionaire, A billionaire pays MORE in taxes than everyone else.

Especially when half this country ISN'T paying ANYTHING what so ever.

What you can't seem to grasp is very simple. Of course millionaires and billionaires pay more because they make more than the average middle class worker don't they? You do understand that don't you? The millionaires and billionaires do not pay the same percent in taxes as a middle class worker and in a nation where everyone is supposed to be equal that is not right.

So what percentage is fair?

We used to pay upwards to 90% and the economy was fantastic. The middle class had great purchasing power and guess what very little national debt.

a reply to: mOjOm

The point of my post was actually why do we still have threads like this from both sides, it just seems like rabble-rousing. People's minds are pretty much made up.

I should have known better. I brought this on myself.

PS: I know I have previously contributed to threads and posted my own that can be characterized similarly. Before I am labeled a blasphemous hypocrite, let me say those experiences have enlightened me to the problems. Not saying one way is right or not, just saying I think we all know who stands for what, what the facts are for each candidate, and have made up our mind. I could easily name the stark advocates for each side off the top of my head. If there is some new, groundbreaking discovery or revelation about the process or candidates, then I'm all for it.

At this point, I can tell from the title of the post who will support it and who will not and practically telegraphic the convo. That's all I'm saying.

a reply to: neo96

But hey everyone the rich 'aren't' paying their fair share.

I know you don't really comprehend things but 200K and 400K is not rich they are upper middle class. People who make millions are rich.

a reply to: ExNihiloRed

My point was also that there are no dramatic instant changes in lifestyle due to a single election. The situation we are in now evolved over a long time, and it took time for our parents and grandparents to see the fruits of their laissez faire relationship with the political system. The decisions we make now, or fail to make, most likely won't have their real effects felt for some time.

Say Sanders wins. Will I expect tax paid healthcare or schooling? Not during his first term. But the discussion will be there, and more importantly the spotlight on government/corporate collusion and corruption will be there too.

a reply to: ExNihiloRed

That's cool. I wasn't trying to say you were wrong exactly. I just think it really comes down to people can only choose from what is available and so far all anyone can do is try and chop Sanders ideas down but they never offer anything else better. I guess the plan is to make Sanders look so bad that Trump or Clinton sounds good in comparison or something???

I really don't see the end game here. Even if they convinced people to hate Sanders all they've done is make the other options seem like an actual choice to go with. Well, what the hell is good about that??? They're all so bad already which is why nobody wants to choose them now.

originally posted by: amicktd
a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Do you even pay attention to the party you vow allegiance to? The Republican candidates thought it was ridiculous that Trump said the Iraq war was a terrible decision.

So yes, it's believable that the next Republican president will be very willing to start another war. The way the economies are tied together, our brute force tactics for corporations overseas, and the republicans not seeing anything morally wrong with the Iraq war is scary. But, I guess that would require thoughts and not knee-jerk childish attacks on other posters for sharing their opinion.

You do know Bernie has to go through congress right? If not, well now you do...how about that for condescending remarks.

I know a lot of what Bernie is saying won't even pass congress, I'm just hoping he can stop that revolving door in Washington.

1) I'm not a Republican. That ends that argument.
2) I don't answer to a Party
3) Every Sanders supporter mentions "Corporations" in a post. Extra points for fitting in the word "Oligarchy"
4) I use humor sometimes to convey a point. a lot of people on ATS with no sense of my IRONIC humor may be suffering from extreme Aspergers or Autism, I don't know. it's not my problem it is seen as an 'attack'. I'm just sarcastic by nature and Bernie supporters actually make me smile a LOT. You guys are cute.
5) Yes, I'm aware of Bernie's need to go through Congress

I wrote an entire 2000+ word OP about it here www.abovetopsecret.com...

6) Bernie IS the "revolving door in Washington.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: ExNihiloRed

That's cool. I wasn't trying to say you were wrong exactly. I just think it really comes down to people can only choose from what is available and so far all anyone can do is try and chop Sanders ideas down but they never offer anything else better. I guess the plan is to make Sanders look so bad that Trump or Clinton sounds good in comparison or something???

I really don't see the end game here. Even if they convinced people to hate Sanders all they've done is make the other options seem like an actual choice to go with. Well, what the hell is good about that??? They're all so bad already which is why nobody wants to choose them now.

People much smarter than me support both sides (and candidates on both sides). All I can really do is have an opinion and hope it is informed.

a reply to: buster2010

Yeah there B some people truly don't comprhend things.

Like Sanders, and his supporters.

Does $300,000 put you in the top 0.1 percent? It does if you're under 31.

www.theatlantic.com...

Here's How Much You Have To Earn To Be In The 1 Percent In Each State

Have anything other than personal insults eh?

If the people want to pay higher taxes, then they will vote for and elect Bernie. (Or Hillary, or Rubio)

If people want lower taxes, they will vote for and elect Trump or Cruz.

I guess I'm in the same boat as many others here. People will vote for whomever will give them the most of what they want.

Some want freedom.
Others just want free (stuff).

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: neo96
Here is another FACT Sanders, and his supporters clearly IGNORE.

IRS data: The top 1% pay 37% of all taxes, the bottom half pay 2%, a blubbering David Letterman can’t believe the facts

What you cannot seem to understand is it's not the amount of dollars they pay in but rather the percentage of their income that is taxed. Why should people like Romney pay 14% of their income while some middle class worker has to pay upwards to 30% of their income.

On this thread, that's where you are wrong. It IS the total amount of dollars paid in, any way, any how, to get the dollars to fund all of his free ideas. And what people seem to keep forgetting, you squeeze the corporations, the rich, THEY LEAVE. That's it....THEY LEAVE. So what then? You can't exactly renege in midstream and start charging people for stuff that was supposed to be free. People won't need education, free or otherwise. There will be so few jobs available.

originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain

originally posted by: amicktd
a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Do you even pay attention to the party you vow allegiance to? The Republican candidates thought it was ridiculous that Trump said the Iraq war was a terrible decision.

So yes, it's believable that the next Republican president will be very willing to start another war. The way the economies are tied together, our brute force tactics for corporations overseas, and the republicans not seeing anything morally wrong with the Iraq war is scary. But, I guess that would require thoughts and not knee-jerk childish attacks on other posters for sharing their opinion.

You do know Bernie has to go through congress right? If not, well now you do...how about that for condescending remarks.

I know a lot of what Bernie is saying won't even pass congress, I'm just hoping he can stop that revolving door in Washington.

1) I'm not a Republican. That ends that argument.
2) I don't answer to a Party
3) Every Sanders supporter mentions "Corporations" in a post. Extra points for fitting in the word "Oligarchy"
4) I use humor sometimes to convey a point. a lot of people on ATS with no sense of my IRONIC humor may be suffering from extreme Aspergers or Autism, I don't know. it's not my problem it is seen as an 'attack'. I'm just sarcastic by nature and Bernie supporters actually make me smile a LOT. You guys are cute.
5) Yes, I'm aware of Bernie's need to go through Congress

I wrote an entire 2000+ word OP about it here www.abovetopsecret.com...

6) Bernie IS the "revolving door in Washington.

No, both parties are the revolving door and to become the nominated candidate you have to be bought out as Sanders and Trump are showing right now.

a reply to: StoutBroux

They want the rich to leave.

Just like they did in Detroit.

And look got caught holding the bag.

Then went bankrupt.

They truly do not understand it.

originally posted by: StoutBroux
And what people seem to keep forgetting, you squeeze the corporations, the rich, THEY LEAVE. That's it....THEY LEAVE. So what then?

Sounds like coercion to me.

the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.

I don't think that makes it any better explaining it like that.

originally posted by: StoutBroux

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: neo96
Here is another FACT Sanders, and his supporters clearly IGNORE.

IRS data: The top 1% pay 37% of all taxes, the bottom half pay 2%, a blubbering David Letterman can’t believe the facts

What you cannot seem to understand is it's not the amount of dollars they pay in but rather the percentage of their income that is taxed. Why should people like Romney pay 14% of their income while some middle class worker has to pay upwards to 30% of their income.

On this thread, that's where you are wrong. It IS the total amount of dollars paid in, any way, any how, to get the dollars to fund all of his free ideas. And what people seem to keep forgetting, you squeeze the corporations, the rich, THEY LEAVE. That's it....THEY LEAVE. So what then? You can't exactly renege in midstream and start charging people for stuff that was supposed to be free. People won't need education, free or otherwise. There will be so few jobs available.

You're right which is why we need admendments to these trade deals. I heard revamp to only allow the trade deals with countries with the same workers rights which seemed like a good idea. Your thoughts on that?

a reply to: buster2010

Here is a list of just SOME of the companies that left the USA in order to escape the US 35% taxes:
(The list is much larger but not all, I am only showing in the last 15 years)

2000 Applied Power Engineering Bermuda Now called Actuant $494 million
2000 Everest Reinsurance Insurance Bermuda $5.6 billion
2000 Seagate Technology Data Storage Cayman Islands $14.4 billion
2000 R&B Falcon Drilling Cayman Islands Acq by Transocean in '00
2001 Global Santa Fe Corp. Offshore Drilling Cayman Islands Acq by Transocean in '07
2001 Foster Wheeler Engineering Bermuda $559 million
2001 Accenture Consulting Bermuda $28.6 billion (FY 2013)
2001 Global Marine Engineering Cayman Islands Acq by Bridgehouse Capital in '04
2002 Noble Corp. Offshore Drilling Cayman Islands $4.2 billion
2002 Cooper Industries Electrical Products Bermuda Acq by Eaton in '12
2002 Nabor Industries Oil and Gas Bermuda $1.6 billion
2002 Weatherford International Oil and Gas Bermuda $15.2 billion
2002 Ingersoll-Rand Industrial Manufacturer Bermuda $12.3 billion
2002 PricewaterhouseCoopers Consulting Consulting Bermuda N/A
2002 Herbalife International Nutrition Cayman Islands $4.8 billion (sales)
2005 Luna Gold Corp Mining Canada $85.3 million
2007 Lincoln Gold Group Mining N/A
2007 Western Goldfields Mining N/A Acq by New Gold in '09
2007 Star Maritime Acquisition Grp Shipping N/A Now Star Bulk $69 million
2007 Argonaut Group Insurance Bermuda $1.4 billion
2007 Fluid Media Networks Music Distribution
2008 Tyco Electronics Industrial Manufacturer Switzerland Now TE Connectivity $3.4 billion (FY '13)
2008 Foster Wheeler Engineering Bermuda $3.3 billion
2008 Covidien Healthcare Ireland $10.2 billion
2008 Patch International Inc Oil and Gas Canada
2008 Arcade Acquisition Group Financial
2008 Energy Infrastructure Acquisition Group Energy
2008 Ascend Acquisition Group Electronics N/A Acq by Kitara Media in '13
2008 ENSCO International Oil and Gas United Kingdom $4.9 billion
2009 Tim Hortons Inc Restaurant Chain Canada $3.2 billion
2009 Hungarian Telephone & Cable Corp. Telecommunications Denmark $219 million
2009 Alpha Security Group Security N/A
2009 Alyst Acquisition Group Financial N/A Acq by China Networks Media in '09
2009 2020 ChinaCap Acquirco Financial N/A Acq by Exceed Co. in '09
2009 Ideation Acquisition Grp Private Equity N/A Acq by SearchMedia in '09
2009 InterAmerican Acquisition Grp Business Management N/A Acq by Sing Kung Ltd in '09
2009 Vantage Energy Services Offshore Drilling Cayman Islands $732 million
2009 Plastinum Polymer Tech Corp. Industrial Manufacturer
2010 Valient Biovail Pharmaceuticals Canada $5.7 billion
2010 Pride International Offshore Drilling United Kindom Acq by Ensco in '11
2010 Global Indemnity Insurance Ireland $319 billion
2011 Alkermes, Inc. Biopharmaceutical Ireland $575 million
2011 TE Connectivity Industrial Manufacturer Switzerland $13.3 billion
2011 Pentair Water Filtration Switzerland $7.5 billion
2012 Rowan Companies Oil Well Drilling United Kindom $1.5 billion
2012 AON Insurance United Kindom $11.8 billion
2012 Tronox Inc Chemical Australia $1.9 billion
2012 Jazz Pharmaceuticals / Azur Pharma Pharmaceuticals Ireland $872 million
2012 D.E. Master Blenders Coffee Netherlands $3.5 billion
2012 Stratasys Printer Manufacturer Israel $486.7 million
2012 Eaton/Cooper Power Management Ireland $22 billion
2012 Endo Health Solutions Pharmaceuticals Ireland $2.6 billion
2013 Liberty Global PLC Cable Company United Kindom $17.3 billion
2013 Actavis / Warner Chilcott Pharmaceuticals Ireland $8.7 billion
2013 Perrigo/Elan Pharmaceuticals Ireland $3.5 billion (FY 2013)
2013 Cadence Pharmaceuticals Pharmaceuticals Ireland $110 million
2014 Mallinckrodt Pharmaceuticals Pharmaceuticals Ireland $2.2 billion
2014 Chiquita Brands Produce Ireland $3 billion
2014 Medtronic Pharmaceuticals Ireland $16.5 billion

SOURCE: Source: Ways and Means Committee Democrats. GRAPHIC: Danielle Douglas - The Washington Post. Published Aug. 6, 2014.

The year they left, the company, where they relocated and their worth.

Tell me again now, how great even more squeezing of the large corporations will be for our economy.

As far as I can see, other candidates and congress in general, don't have a plan to pay for stuff. They just charge it to our debt.

originally posted by: amicktd

originally posted by: StoutBroux

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: neo96
Here is another FACT Sanders, and his supporters clearly IGNORE.

IRS data: The top 1% pay 37% of all taxes, the bottom half pay 2%, a blubbering David Letterman can’t believe the facts

What you cannot seem to understand is it's not the amount of dollars they pay in but rather the percentage of their income that is taxed. Why should people like Romney pay 14% of their income while some middle class worker has to pay upwards to 30% of their income.

On this thread, that's where you are wrong. It IS the total amount of dollars paid in, any way, any how, to get the dollars to fund all of his free ideas. And what people seem to keep forgetting, you squeeze the corporations, the rich, THEY LEAVE. That's it....THEY LEAVE. So what then? You can't exactly renege in midstream and start charging people for stuff that was supposed to be free. People won't need education, free or otherwise. There will be so few jobs available.

You're right which is why we need admendments to these trade deals. I heard revamp to only allow the trade deals with countries with the same workers rights which seemed like a good idea. Your thoughts on that?

If you look at the small list I posted, you will see that the workers rights issue is covered.......in fact, some of those countries have better worker rights than we have here.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: StoutBroux
And what people seem to keep forgetting, you squeeze the corporations, the rich, THEY LEAVE. That's it....THEY LEAVE. So what then?

Sounds like coercion to me.

the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.

I don't think that makes it any better explaining it like that.

If your tent will potentially flood from being too close to an ever increasing and overflowing river, what do you do? You have two options, block the invasive water or move your tent. Simple.