Black hole simulation supports aspects of popular science fiction

A follow up to my post about spaghettification.

It seems that in 2003 the professor speculates about a very special type of black hole which avoids that problem. If you hit it just right.

If the non-compact sources are weak, Burko shows, a hybrid singularity forms: a strong sector (inevitably destructive) and a weak sector (finite tidal distortions). A spaceship entering through the weak sector conceivably could travel unscathed to another part of space-time.

archive.unews.utah.edu...

originally posted by: Phage

"It has often been assumed that objects approaching a black hole are crushed by the increasing gravity,"

The trouble is the more likely scenario is that the object would cease to exist before it even reaches the event horizon. Objects approaching the event horizon would not be crushed by increasing gravity, they would be broken into smaller and smaller fragments due to tidal effects. The common term is spaghettification. Like what happened to Comet Shoemaker–Levy 9, but more so.

I guess they skipped that part in the model.

tidal gradients depend on the curvature of the "throat" of a black hole. the larger the black hole the gentler the gradient even if that means the mass is greater.

also i do not know for sure but it looks like their conjecture assumes the topology (Kerr, etc) and the rotation alters the gravity and thus the gradient. also hawking recently released a paper on this that is causing a huge controversy in physicist circles.

a reply to: stormbringer1701
Yes. It is true that with a supermassive black hole, the gravity gradient outside of the event horizon may be low enough to survive (due to the distance of the horizon from the singularity). But once past the event horizon, the gravity gradient will continue to increase.

also i do not know for sure but it looks like their conjecture assumes the topology (Kerr, etc) and the rotation alters the gravity and thus the gradient.

Indeed, it is always risky to judge science papers by popular articles written about them.

Hawking's latest: www.nature.com...

synopsis. There is no firewall.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

I know about that paper, it doesn't have much to do with the one being discussed.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: stormbringer1701

I know about that paper, it doesn't have much to do with the one being discussed.

lol. it does if you want get back out of the black hole at any time.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

lol. it does if you want get back out of the black hole at any time.

No, not really.
The paper is about quantum information being lost or not, not about humans surviving.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: stormbringer1701

lol. it does if you want get back out of the black hole at any time.

No, not really.
The paper is about quantum information being lost or not, not about humans surviving.

i know its about quantum information but the same mechanism that was believed to have prevented it would naturally also have prevented anything larger from getting out. though there are papers on temporarily destroying the event horizon with appropriate energy pulses. This is surprising since i went looking for the fictional trek technobabble plot device and that led me to an actual paper on that. I thought it was just writers taking liberties with science again but it turned out that there was a scientific claim to the same effect.

When super massive black holes are feeding then in some ways they are white holes.

I say this as the friction caused between all the inflowing dust is superheated and essentially the brightest known objects in the universe.

This also means that to enter you would have to enter a non feeding SMBH or be burnt up before you even got there.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

i know its about quantum information but the same mechanism that was believed to have prevented it would naturally also have prevented anything larger from getting out.

Actually, there was no mechanism which was believed to prevent the loss of quantum information, other than the paradox which such a loss represents. But a paradox is not a mechanism.

There just had not been a mechanism presented which might allow it. Nor is it really accepted that Hawking's hypothesis does so.

if a black hole spins too fast or gains too much electrical charge the event horizon may be negated. This is implicit in GR but there is debate on whether there is some mechanism which prevents this.

oldlams.slcusd.org...

however since that article was published there has sprung up a cottage industry of exploring this idea with several papers showing up right away under the proper search terms.

The search terms i used are: "exposing a singularity by destroying the event horizon"

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: stormbringer1701

I know about that paper, it doesn't have much to do with the one being discussed.

lol. it does if you want get back out of the black hole at any time.

Wouldn't you be coming out one particle at a time (even if information is somehow preserved)?

a reply to: stormbringer1701
Not sure how a naked singularity would change anything being discussed here.

one aspect of popular fiction concerning black holes is that you can enter and leave them intact. everything i have posted is topical to that.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
one aspect of popular fiction concerning black holes is that you can enter and leave them intact. everything i have posted is topical to that.

I don't see how Hawking radiation -- even if information is preserved and transferred to the radiation -- would allow for a human to leave the black hole intact.

Maybe once the black hole was done radiating away, and once all of that Hawking radiation was analyzed, there existed the particles that made the human among all of the particles that were radiated, and the quantum states of those particles were still the same as they were when they were part of the human who got sucked into the black hole...but they wouldn't be an intact human.

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
one aspect of popular fiction concerning black holes is that you can enter and leave them intact. everything i have posted is topical to that.

I don't see how Hawking radiation -- even if information is preserved and transferred to the radiation -- would allow for a human to leave the black hole intact.

Maybe once the black hole was done radiating away, and once all of that Hawking radiation was analyzed, there existed the particles that made the human among all of the particles that were radiated, and the quantum states of those particles were still the same as they were when they were part of the human who got sucked into the black hole...but they wouldn't be an intact human.

if the event horizon is removed (think of what the event horizon is) then we are not talking about hawking radiation anymore.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
one aspect of popular fiction concerning black holes is that you can enter and leave them intact. everything i have posted is topical to that.

I don't see how Hawking radiation -- even if information is preserved and transferred to the radiation -- would allow for a human to leave the black hole intact.

Maybe once the black hole was done radiating away, and once all of that Hawking radiation was analyzed, there existed the particles that made the human among all of the particles that were radiated, and the quantum states of those particles were still the same as they were when they were part of the human who got sucked into the black hole...but they wouldn't be an intact human.

if the event horizon is removed (think of what the event horizon is) then we are not talking about hawking radiation anymore.

Right, so the singularity would never evaporate. While the quantum information contained within it might still exist, it could never be recovered.

originally posted by: Phage

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
one aspect of popular fiction concerning black holes is that you can enter and leave them intact. everything i have posted is topical to that.

I don't see how Hawking radiation -- even if information is preserved and transferred to the radiation -- would allow for a human to leave the black hole intact.

Maybe once the black hole was done radiating away, and once all of that Hawking radiation was analyzed, there existed the particles that made the human among all of the particles that were radiated, and the quantum states of those particles were still the same as they were when they were part of the human who got sucked into the black hole...but they wouldn't be an intact human.

if the event horizon is removed (think of what the event horizon is) then we are not talking about hawking radiation anymore.

Right, so the singularity would never evaporate. While the quantum information contained within it might still exist, it could never be recovered.

arxiv.org...

In this letter, we study the possibility of destroying the event horizon of regular black holes. These objects have no central singularity and therefore they are not protected by the cosmic censorship hypothesis. Our results strongly support the conclusion that regular black holes can be destroyed.

originally posted by: Triton1128
a reply to: andy06shake

I'm a fan of the white hole theory.. But have we found anything in our own universe that could be portrayed as one?

You would think with the amount of black holes we have in our universe, if each ended with a white hole on the other end, in another universe. We would see as many white holes here as black holes?

Well sun's are just theory how they work. They could be ejection ports from the center black hole.

the anatomy of a black hole needs to be considered. inside the black hole event horizon is a region of space between the singularity (if there really is a singularity which is disputed) and the inside boundary of the event horizon. in this region an object that has entered the black hole is not destroyed. in fact the properties of a rotating black hole make it possible to avoid the singularity in a black hole (if it exists) even if the object is driven into the central region of the black hole.

regardless; if an object is behind the event horizon and the horizon is destroyed then the objects behind the event horizon which survive are not trapped any longer. The event horizon whether taken geometrically as in any path in a straight line from inside the EH curves such that it does not lead outside the EH*- or in terms of the amount of energy necessary to overcome downward vectors is impossible to obtain or infinite...

*any path through space is through space so curved that the endpoint is never outside the EH no matter how the curvature is compensated for or taken into account by the navigator and helm. geodetic or geodesic path through space. you travel in curved space so you cannot go in a straight line. in most of space this is so small a curvature you don't notice it. but it can be proven by observing natural effects such as lensing near massive objects and the deviation in normal space is calculable and measurable with proper instrumentation even if it isn't sensed naturally.

The point at which this becomes true is the event horizon. if the event horizon is gone then so is the constraint on escaping it. it may not be easy but without the EH matter can escape the black hole with either the proper trajectory or a sufficient energy.