Archaeological find: Historic church discovered ‘could change history of Orthodoxy’

This is a very fascinating find!



There was another church that's been uncovered in the Cappadocia region of Central Anatolia and some of its frescoes which depict scenes that have never been seen before.

Nevşehir Mayor Hasan Ünver said the frescoes in the church showed the rise of Jesus the Christ into the sky and the killing of the bad souls.

What's interesting about this particular part is that the current depiction of a Caucasian Jesus is likely due to Pope Alexander VI whom ordered the destruction of all art depicting a Semitic Jesus and commissioned a number of paintings depicting a Caucasian Jesus. His son, Cardinal Cesare Borgia, was the model for these paintings.



Cesare Borgia was born September 13, 1475 (which I just realized is also my wedding anniversary...) and this church was built somewhere within the 5th century AD. So, the images we see within this church date about 1000 years before 'Caucasian Jesus'.

Ünver goes on to say:

“We know that such frescoes have so far never been seen in any other church,” Ünver said, adding that preliminary studies show the church might date back to the 5th century A.D.

“This place is even bigger than the other historical churches in Cappadocia. It was built underground and has original frescoes that have survived to this day,” he said.

“We didn’t even think of finding such a structure when we first started works. But excavations and cleaning work are continuing and we hope to find new data relating to the history of Cappadocia,” the mayor said.

“It is reported that some of the frescoes here are unique. There are exciting depictions like fish falling from the hand of Jesus Christ, him rising up into the sky, and the bad souls being killed. When the church is completely revealed, Cappadocia could become an even bigger pilgrimage center of Orthodoxy,” Ünver added.

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The church's depiction of Jesus looks more like this:



What makes this particular site so exciting is just how well preserved everything is, and how it's still ongoing in research.

“Only a few of the paintings have been revealed. Others will emerge when the earth is removed. There are important paintings in the front part of the church showing the crucifixion of Jesus and his ascension to heaven. There are also frescoes showing the apostles, the saints and other prophets Moses and Elyesa,” he said, adding that they had also found the real entrance of the church used in the past but had yet to expose it.

As with most early churches, the art is pretty stylized, so I'm not sure how much you can read into it on those terms - particularly if it's 5th century - I mean, that's talking 350ish years after the gospels were written. Put that into some perspective, and... Australia is barely 200 years 'old' (apologies to Aborigines on that one). 350 years is a long time. It's also significantly later than the foundation of the Roman Catholic Church, so really all it's shedding light on is the institutionalized church, rather than the organic churches that we see in the New Testament (which were in homes, not in public buildings. That's a later, Roman invention).

With that said, the discovery itself is pretty amazing.
I'd love to see more images from the inside of the church. Hopefully there's more available online somewhere...

a reply to: Ghost147
Nice find.
Star and flag!

I'm not sure why that Jesus is supposed to look shocking.

Well for a 32 year old Jesus looks terrible!

Cesare Borgia was born September 13, 1475 (which I just realized is also my wedding anniversary...)

Man... You have been married for a REALLY long time.

On topic, I love finds like this. Anything historic should never be buried forever and sometimes I wonder if folks just didn't think it would be that big of a deal (not with religious findings that were buried for nefarious purposes of course). I know some stuff was intentionally buried (we are told), but some stuff... It would be like maybe one of us burying a Coke can when our house was demo'd, it just wouldn't strike us that hundreds/thousands of years from now, that Coke can may be of interest to an all new society.

I am curious to see what else they will find there.

originally posted by: Awen24
As with most early churches, the art is pretty stylized, so I'm not sure how much you can read into it on those terms - particularly if it's 5th century - I mean, that's talking 350ish years after the gospels were written. Put that into some perspective, and... Australia is barely 200 years 'old' (apologies to Aborigines on that one). 350 years is a long time. It's also significantly later than the foundation of the Roman Catholic Church, so really all it's shedding light on is the institutionalized church, rather than the organic churches that we see in the New Testament (which were in homes, not in public buildings. That's a later, Roman invention).

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting the images were of 'the real depiction of Jesus". However, I would be more convinced that they suggest a more accurate version than the Cesare Borgia would ever be

originally posted by: Awen24
With that said, the discovery itself is pretty amazing.
I'd love to see more images from the inside of the church. Hopefully there's more available online somewhere...

If I stumble across them when they are released, I'll be sure to post an 'update' thread on the matter

a reply to: Ghost147

Well hopefully they don't turn it into a mosque like they're trying to do again to the Hagia Sophia and other Orthodox Churches in that region.

But yes a very interesting find and very interesting to see the paintings and specifically how people lived in that region at that time.

The findings of Dinosaur fossils should have changed the history of all religion.

Yet........

a reply to: Cobaltic1978

Huh? so how do you feel about the Orthodox Church that was found from the time of the Eastern Roman Empire?

I like the colors though. Surprised at how vibrant they are.

a reply to: Ghost147
It's worth noting that Pope Alexander certainly did not destroy the whole of mediaeval religious art, whether that was his intention or not, with the result that many, many depictions of Jesus have survived which were painted before his time. So this discovery is by no means our first chance to see pre-Alexander depictions.

I don't know exactly what the article means by "changing the history of Orthodoxy", but it won't be about the face of Jesus.
It will concern the history of the Greek-speaking church of the east, and it will possibly be something along the lines of "We didn't realise the church was so strong in, or so artistic in, Cappadocia during that era".

a reply to: ketsuko

I've always wanted to go to an Orthodox church especially the Hagia Sophia. I find the style and the art to be so amazingly beautiful and i'm not even deeply religious

a reply to: JDmOKI

Dinosaurs were there before.

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: ketsuko

I've always wanted to go to an Orthodox church especially the Hagia Sophia. I find the style and the art to be so amazingly beautiful and i'm not even deeply religious

It sounds like you are.

No offence.

So Apparently Jesus is more of a Catholic than a Jew.

Wonderful thread, this is pre iconoclasm and somehow survived those periods of eastern religious upheaval when the orthodox church was wracked by a movement whom wanted to adhere to the religious commandment against engraved images.
en.wikipedia.org...

You are quite correct in your assertion that the Orthodox imagery and those in the capadocian region's are probably more like the original image of christ in there depiction's, he came as a Jew, a Semite though it has also to be pointed out that historically fair haired and blue eye's people were actually prevelant in the area for many thousands of years before the european's, the Kurd's whom may be the descendant's of the philistines and other native tribe's (Though the phillistines were really pheonician, at least in there writing and trade link's, so how native they were is an entirely different argument) and the Kurd's are often born blond haired, often with blue or green eye's.

My favourite depiction of Christ is actually the Turin shroud, I know it is contentious but the head of the team whom returned the faulty carbon dating actually made a death bed confession that he himself believed the dating was wrong since his team had not dated the shroud proper but rather the material which had been sown in to mend it after the fire damage it had suffered in the medievil period.

Interestingly the shroud portrays a man with distinctive semitic features, long face and nose, high cheekbone's and though it can not really be represented it would seem to show thick perhaps wavy hair and a thick beard just as a jew of the first century would likely have appeared.

Though you may or may not accept it there is another image, not of christ but of the apparition of the virgin mary, the image on the cactus cloth tilma of Huan Diego which is on display in mexico city.

Though it is possible the image was altered at a later date there are many curiosity's about it such as curved reflection's in the eye's which seem to be of people, the only paint possible to create the colours on the tilma would have been acrylic paints but not only did they not exist but an analysis of the tilma showed no sing's of paint with the exception of the moon and the cherub beneath the woman on the cloak which may have been added later.
youtu.be...

Interestingly images including blured photographic images of the virgin's apparition in europe which sometimes appear to have golden hair seem to have the same feature's as this image.

Both Orthodox and Catholic as well as the Syriac Orthodox, the Ethiopian Orthodox, The Armenian Orthodox and the Coptyc church hold the virgin as Co-Redemtrix as she suffered the pain only a mother can feel as seeing her son die like that on the cross, all of these churches also hold to the traditional belief which can be dated back to the very earliest period of the church that she was raised up to heaven by her son.

Jesus said I shall come unto each as one of there own, why should his mother not also do so.

Miriam the mother of the Meshiach, the Emanuel, Jah incarnate - Jah Saves.

Often finds of sanctified sites like this are for a reason, there is great trouble in that part of the world and great persecution's so for the faithful this will serve as a reminder, that face of Jesus on that Icon is beautiful though obviously he look's more persio-greek on that one as it was of course much like the later works painted by someone whom may only have seen earlier iconographic images of maybe had a vision of the christ.

I always believed in a beared christ with long hair but back in the early-mid 90's I was having a lot of trauma and had a strange vision, I was just about to let go having had enough and in that vision I felt so tired, there before me was a man on a cross, I did not question, did not project my belief but simply accepted him as christ, his hair had been shorn as with a knife and his beard cut off to the skin, he was nevertheless crowned with a crown of thorns and I felt comforted as in the vision I rested my head against his chest, a voice said in the vision "This is what it is like to be dead", of course when My lord was crucified he did die but of course he also rose from death and is alive forever now, when he ascended he rose with the cloud's and that is meaning he became spirit from which he had come, when he come's again he will come in spirit and manifest once again but back from heaven not being born again of a woman.

Sorry if I am drifting but thank you for that beautiful imagery.

reply to: JDmOKI

Absolutely. Whether one is a burger or not, the architecture and artwork of the era are absolutely stunning.

a reply to: Ghost147

For some reason, I imagined a more Jewish hairstyle, similar to modern Rabbi's but longer.

To me the picture's hairstyle looks somewhat Greek.

originally posted by: olaru12
So Apparently Jesus is more of a Catholic than a Jew.

He is neither. He isnt even a He or a She. He is that He is, and always has been. How deep can you think? Here is the question: What has He been doing forever. How did he make something from nothing.
Im amazed the scientists that think matter is a given. There should be nothing. Forever nothing. No planets. No matter. No energy. Nothing