New Resarch Suggests Chimp/Human Fossil Record May Be Inaccurate Depiction Of Divergence

a reply to: Ghost147

Enlightened1 started in on creationists...
I assumed you were reading your own thread...
Anyway I apologize for my part of the drift in your thread...
I myself am not a huge fan of evolution because so many use it as an argument against creation...
I believe I have made myself clear I do not believe they are comparable...
I'm also more of a believer in genetic manipulations being the reasons we see evidence of evolution...
I find it rather interesting how the changes in fossil records seem to coincide with huge natural disasters and drastic changes in the environment and atmosphere....
I guess if you are more willing to entertain aliens all the power to you...

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147
I myself am not a huge fan of evolution because so many use it as an argument against creation...

So your issues with evolution's validity are because people use it against creation, rather than the evidence surrounding it?

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147
I'm also more of a believer in genetic manipulations being the reasons we see evidence of evolution...
I find it rather interesting how the changes in fossil records seem to coincide with huge natural disasters and drastic changes in the environment and atmosphere....

Well, you're more than welcome to continue the discussion with me in this thread if you want to go into specifications.

a reply to: Ghost147

I do not find the information used as evidence for evolution to be conclusive...
Your op is proof enough that it is not an exact science just as you yourself stated...
So that also says to me it has holes and is not solid and therefore not entirely factual and much is still supposed...

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147

I do not find the information used as evidence for evolution to be conclusive...

Excellent! Perhaps I can explain it better in the topic I linked to in my last comment?

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147
Your op is proof enough that it is not an exact science just as you yourself stated...

The comment your referring to states that all science isn't "exact" and absolute. Science intrinsically does not deal with absolute certainty. So that cannot possibly be a reason why you would reject this theory in science versus any other theory in science.

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147
So that also says to me it has holes and is not solid and therefore not entirely factual and much is still supposed...

Once again, our explanation is called a theory, and that theory explains a fact. If your issue with Evolution is that 'it's just a theory', then why are you not denying gravity, atoms, germs, planetary orbit of the sun, or a spherical earth?

a reply to: Ghost147

Because these things are not trying to convince me of a lie...
Unless you want to try and tell me gravity comes from the center of the earth and pulls us down instead of from space pushing us down....

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147
Because these things are not trying to convince me of a lie...
Unless you want to try and tell me gravity comes from the center of the earth and pulls us down instead of from space pushing us down....

Well, if it is such a clear 'lie' you should have no issues showing it to be one.

Also, gravity comes from the mass of the earth, it has nothing to do with space pushing us anywhere

a reply to: Ghost147

OK now I know you don't know what you are talking about...
Thanks for your time...

Also just so you know a theory is not a fact...

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147

OK now I know you don't know what you are talking about...
Thanks for your time...

Cya! If you ever feel like denying ignorance. You know which topic to inquire upon

a reply to: Ghost147

That's funny was I not just denying your ignorance?

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147

That's funny was I not just denying your ignorance?

I fail to see where you've proved my claims as false.

However, if you are so sure that they are, once again, you're more than welcome to discuss it with me at the link I provided earlier

a reply to: Ghost147

Why can't people understand that a scientific theory is an explanation of a fact?

Theory of evolution doesn't mean that evolution is a theory. What it does mean is evolution is a scientific fact, but we will never have 100% of the data.

a reply to: Ghost147

You said evolution is a fact then you referred to it as it truly is when you called it a theory...

Theory is just the best supposition based on said evidence and can not be claimed factual...

Maybe one day it will be referred to as the fact of evolution...

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147

You said evolution is a fact then you referred to it as it truly is when you called it a theory...

I'm not quite sure how I haven't already made this incredibly clear.

Scientific theories are our explanation on naturally occurring phenomena (facts of nature)

The theory of General Relativity is our scientific theory on the fact of gravity

The Heliocentric theory is our scientific theory on the fact that planets orbit the sun.

The theories are our explanation on phenomena that are evident to occur.

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147
Theory is just the best supposition based on said evidence and can not be claimed factual...

There is a difference between the standard English term "Theory" and what is known as a "Scientific Theory".

"The way that scientists use the word 'theory' is a little different than how it is commonly used in the lay public," said Jaime Tanner, a professor of biology at Marlboro College. "Most people use the word 'theory' to mean an idea or hunch that someone has, but in science the word 'theory' refers to the way that we interpret facts."
more info here


1) The word theory, in the context of science, does not imply uncertainty. It means "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" (Barnhart 1948). In the case of the theory of evolution, the following are some of the phenomena involved. All are facts:
~ Life appeared on earth more than two billion years ago;
~ Life forms have changed and diversified over life's history;
~ Species are related via common descent from one or a few common ancestors;
~ Natural selection is a significant factor affecting how species change.
Many other facts are explained by the theory of evolution as well.

2) The theory of evolution has proved itself in practice. It has useful applications in epidemiology, pest control, drug discovery, and other areas (Bull and Wichman 2001; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003).

3) Besides the theory, there is the fact of evolution, the observation that life has changed greatly over time. The fact of evolution was recognized even before Darwin's theory. The theory of evolution explains the fact.

4) If "only a theory" were a real objection, creationists would also be issuing disclaimers complaining about the theory of gravity, atomic theory, the germ theory of disease, and the theory of limits (on which calculus is based). The theory of evolution is no less valid than any of these. Even the theory of gravity still receives serious challenges (Milgrom 2002). Yet the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is still a fact.

5) Creationism is neither theory nor fact; it is, at best, only an opinion. Since it explains nothing, it is scientifically useless.



References:
~ Barnhart, Clarence L., ed. 1948. The American College Dictionary, New York: Random House.
~ Bull, J. J. and H. A. Wichman. 2001. Applied evolution. Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 32: 183-217.
~ Eisen, J. A. and M. Wu. 2002. Phylogenetic analysis and gene functional predictions: Phylogenomics in action. Theoretical Population Biology 61: 481-487.
~ Milgrom, Mordehai. 2002. Does dark matter really exist? Scientific American 287(2) (Aug.): 42-52.
~ Searls, D. 2003. Pharmacophylogenomics: Genes, evolution and drug targets. Nature Reviews Drug Discovery 2: 613-623. www.nature.com... [/url]

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147
Maybe one day it will be referred to as the fact of evolution...

Hopefully the above information will clarify why evolution is both a fact and a theory

a reply to: Ghost147

Heh your silly...

Theories are vague truths or unclear facts whereas facts are really facts...

You are correct all the things you listed are all only theories...

But none of them are facts...

Time and facts will poke holes in all of them with further observation...

Maybe then they will evolve into fact...

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147

Heh your silly...

Theories are vague truths or unclear facts whereas facts are really facts...

You are correct all the things you listed are all only theories...

But none of them are facts...

It's as if you're intentionally rejecting the reality in the comments you're reading. Even after the excessive explanation you still cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that the 'things i just listed' are beyond the conventional term of 'theory'.

As for your 'none of them are facts' comment. Do you actually deny that gravity is a fact? or that the Earth is Spherical? Or that Atoms exist? or that the planets of the solar system orbit the sun? Are these only assumptions to you?

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147
Time and facts will poke holes in all of them with further observation...

Ah, so you do reject the existence of gravity? Outstanding.

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147
Maybe then they will evolve into fact...

Or, you know, you could explain how they all are make-believe and don't exist. Feel free to make a topic on the matter. I would be glad to join in on the conversation

a reply to: Ghost147

these things are still not fully understood and the explanation therefore is not factual and so remains theory...

I'm sure you can realize this?

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147

these things are still not fully understood and the explanation therefore is not factual and so remains theory...

I'm sure you can realize this?

Yes! I do! I've said this a number of times already, and you've even commented on me saying that we cannot possible know everything and that nothing is absolutely certain.

What you don't seem to understand is that there is a difference between our explanations and the evident and obvious fact that these phenomena do exist. That is the entire point I'm trying to make. The only things that change are our explanation, not the existences of these phenomena.

I would ask "I'm sure you can realize this?", but I'm more sure that you're unable to comprehend this concept as is evident from the totality of your posts here thus far.

a reply to: Ghost147

Why must I evolve to your way of thinking when you can not admit to the faults in your own way of thinking...

Gravity is due to the curvature of space by massive objects and pushes you down it does not pull you from earths center...

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Ghost147

Why must I evolve to your way of thinking when you can not admit to the faults in your own way of thinking...

Gravity is due to the curvature of space by massive objects and pushes you down it does not pull you from its center...

Seriously? It pushes you down?

I would ask you to explain, but you're so far off topic it's on another planet.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Argue with Einstein theory...