The People Had Overwhelming Force at the Bundy Ranch, and They Showed Restraint... But When...

a reply to: spy66

see thing is normally when some one surrenders they put their hands up and stop moving
had he stayed in the vehicle with his hand on the wheel or got out and immediately laid down with his hands on his head this would not have happened (regardless of the fact that this idiot pretty much did everything in his power before that to ensure it would)
i believe he did reach for his weapon before he was shot
not that it matters because his behavior was not that of some one surrendering
he continued to act in an unpredictable and erratic manner
even if we are to assume that he was not in fact reaching for a weapon (which is laughable) the shots were justified because this man had stated his intent to fight to the end and continued to behave in a manner which indicated that he was not lying about that

other than actually firing his weapon he did almost everything possible over the preceeding weeks to come off as a significant threat to those agents and officers
why would it be reasonable to assume that those words and actions were empty?

law enforcement in this instance seem to have shown incredible restraint
(most likely for political reasons..... if these people were dealt with as they should have been they would have been martyrs and inspired more ignorant radicalized asshats to follow suit)
my first move would have been to cut all utilities to the building and set up a perimeter to prevent any supplies from coming in
arrest them if they come out
if they decide they want to actually use those weapons then pull back to a safe distance
level the entire structure and rebuild

then again treating them like glorified hotel guests as was done has its own charms
definitely took the bite out of their rhetoric

a reply to: fartlordsupreme


The FBI who are selected to do these typs of missions are very well trained to handle situations like this, and are even given scores on how well they preform at training and selections.

If a FBI agent at training/selections cant tell if a subject is surredering or reaching for his weapon... and still kills the subject. The FBI agent would moste likely not be selected for these types of tasks/missions within the FBI. I know this for a fact, because i have been a Counter terrorist operator and a instructor since 1992.

Moste of Our training is to learn how to react to many different senarios. We actually Train on when it is time to shoot and when you should not shoot. We are drilled very well in this.

What ever opinion you have is not relative to the type of training these FBI operators have. These FBI operators are trained to react differently than you would based on their training. You would probably shoot a person who was moving With his gun holstered, hands up in the air and out to the side...Not having his weapon in his hand. But the FBI are actually trained to react differently.

a reply to: fartlordsupreme

Erratic manner ?

How do you think he should have acted after fully realizing the impact of the situation and the fact they were already unleashing bullets, and after driving for his life, trying to save his passengers ?

It looks perfectly normal, the guy is pleading for his and their lives, and he gets shot even more for doing so.

And it looks like they ENJOYED mowing this guy down like the wild west.

Some of you people are beyond help.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: fartlordsupreme

Erratic manner ?

How do you think he should have acted after fully realizing the impact of the situation and the fact they were already unleashing bullets, and after driving for his life, trying to save his passengers ?

already explained what he should have done
and can you tone down the drama please
right now your at a 10
i need you bring it down to right around 6
can you do that for me?

aah

driving for his life

through a god damned road block which is how he got into that situation in the first place
he ran the roadblock and then essentially continued doing as he pleased albeit with his hands in the air (before reaching for a weapon anyway)
are you trying to tell me that is not erratic behavior?

“Next thing we know, LaVoy takes off with his pickup and the other occupants,” McConnell said, describing it as “an act of aggression, and foolish.”

thats what Mark McConnell another militia member thinks of lavoys behavior



again completely ignoring whether or not he was reaching for that gun that is some pretty unpredictable behavior
and with the history this guy has and the things he was saying and doing just prior to this event
he absolutely should have been treated as an imminent threat

www.abovetopsecret.com...

higher resolution video
clearly shows that he was reaching into his jacket before being shot

he reaches
hesitates
then turns and reaches all the way in
the officer behind and to the side shoots him
he immediately drops

originally posted by: fartlordsupreme
www.abovetopsecret.com...

higher resolution video
clearly shows that he was reaching into his jacket before being shot

Yeah he was definitely trying to get something out of his pocket. Not a good idea when officers are telling you to stop.If hr was reaching for his gun we learned a valuable lesson. Don't put a gun in a jacket pocket hard to pull it out. Oh and probably a bad idea to do it if officers are pointing guns at you.

originally posted by: fartlordsupreme
www.abovetopsecret.com...

higher resolution video
clearly shows that he was reaching into his jacket before being shot

he reaches
hesitates
then turns and reaches all the way in
the officer behind and to the side shoots him
he immediately drops

I doubt it. The person was already hit at that time. He could just as easy have been puting his hand on the bullet entrypoint on his body.

Even if he was reaching for his weapon, FBI should still have waited until they were absolute sure that he actually reached for a weapon.

A weapon is not a danger until it is actually pointing at you. At no time was the subject pointing a weapon or even having a weapon in his hand. The subject was never a threat to the FBI.

a reply to: spy66

so you would say
but i would expect better from a super awesome anti terrorism expert such as yourself

originally posted by: fartlordsupreme
a reply to: spy66

so you would say
but i would expect better from a super awesome anti terrorism expert such as yourself

Yes. We are trained to know when it is time to pull the trigger. We who are trained to handle situations like this, and operate With a different Level of threat than you would.

Even if he had put his hand on a holstered weapon, it is still not the right time to pull the trigger. The subject is still not a imminent threat. Becasue the gun is still holstered and safe.

It is when the subjects pulls a holstered weapon up and out of the holster, and up into fireing position... we make the decision to pull the trigger or not.

This is probably hard for you to grasp, but than again you dont have this Level of training.

a reply to: spy66

please tell me more

a reply to: spy66

You have obviously never been shot. This isn't a movie realty is much different them Hollywood movies.He shows no signs have having been shot and only in movies do people put ther hand over it when they are shot. I'm real life you can't even tell where the bullet enters your body goes into shock. I was shot in the leg and the whole lower half of my body felt it. I couldn't have told you where I was shot until about 10 min later. The whole hand over the bullet hole was Hollywood westerns before they learned special effects. Oh and the last thing you want to do is touch where you were shot trust me I almost slugged the medic trying to stop the bleeding.

As for your training you should know this unless you never actually used your weopon on anything other than targets. And having many FBI being former military I'd say they learned the lesson every instructor teaches you never and I mean never let them draw a weapon. Waiting until they unholster it is stupid you have no guarantee you will see it I have a holster I can draw it and have you dead in less than 2 seconds. Many holsters like my glock have quick draw holstets like the one i got from blade tech.

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: spy66

You have obviously never been shot. This isn't a movie realty is m uxh different them Hollywood movies.he shows no signs have having been shot and only in movies do people put ther hand over it when they are shot. I'm real life you can't even tell where the bullet enters your body goes into shock. I was shot in the leg and the whole lower half of my body felt it. I couldn't have told you where I was shot until about 10 min later. The whole hand over the bullet hole was Hollywood westerns before they learned special effects. Oh and the last thing you want to do is touch where you were shot trust me I almost slugged the medic trying to stop the bleeding.

No, i have never been shot. That means i have been doing my Things right.

But i know that People react differently when being shot, becasue it all Depends on where you are hit, and what state you are in when you are being hit.

As for your training you should know this unless you never actually used your weopon on anything other than targets. And having many FBI being former military I'd say they learned the lesson every instructor teaches you never and I mean never let them draw a weapon. Waiting until they ungolster it is stupid you have no guarantee you will see it I have a holster I can draw it and have you dead in less than 2 seconds. Many holsters like my glock have quick draw holstets like thr one i got from blade tech.

I know that you are talking crap here. I have been training With the FBI at many occations even in Jordan, Oman and Norway.

We are though the same thing. And we are being evaluated on Our actions. You can even ask them.

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: spy66

You have obviously never been shot. This isn't a movie realty is m uxh different them Hollywood movies.he shows no signs have having been shot and only in movies do people put ther hand over it when they are shot. I'm real life you can't even tell where the bullet enters your body goes into shock. I was shot in the leg and the whole lower half of my body felt it. I couldn't have told you where I was shot until about 10 min later. The whole hand over the bullet hole was Hollywood westerns before they learned special effects. Oh and the last thing you want to do is touch where you were shot trust me I almost slugged the medic trying to stop the bleeding.

No, i have never been shot. That means i have been doing my Things right.

But i know that People react differently when being shot, becasue it all Depends on where you are hit, and what state you are in when you are being hit.

Having been in combat I will say I've never seen anyone grab the bullet hole until well after the fight and even then many are reluctant to do that because the pain. I learned quickly telling someone to keep pressure on a gun shot doesn't happen. I would often just tie it off. A person would rather bleed to death then press on a gunshot. That's why we had meds in my med kit.

PS and if you wait until after they draw a weapon your making a huge mistake stay behind the desk.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: spy66

You have obviously never been shot. This isn't a movie realty is m uxh different them Hollywood movies.he shows no signs have having been shot and only in movies do people put ther hand over it when they are shot. I'm real life you can't even tell where the bullet enters your body goes into shock. I was shot in the leg and the whole lower half of my body felt it. I couldn't have told you where I was shot until about 10 min later. The whole hand over the bullet hole was Hollywood westerns before they learned special effects. Oh and the last thing you want to do is touch where you were shot trust me I almost slugged the medic trying to stop the bleeding.

No, i have never been shot. That means i have been doing my Things right.

But i know that People react differently when being shot, becasue it all Depends on where you are hit, and what state you are in when you are being hit.

Having been in combat I will say I've never seen anyone grab the bullet hole until well after the fight and even then many are reluctant to do that because the pain. I learned quickly telling someone to keep pressure on a gun shot doesn't happen. I would often just tie it off. A person would rather bleed to death then press on a gunshot. That's why we had meds in my med kit.

PS and if you wait until after they draw a weapon your making a huge mistake stay behind the desk.

You have never had this Level of Counter terroists training. FBI who are trained to hadle these situations specifically cant be assosiated With Your army training. It is not even Close.

dragonridr

FBI are specifically trained in how to apporach and execute these types of senarios With specific designed actions. They are not designed to execute a situation like this... like the army would do it.

The FBIs primary goal is to apprehend and secure civilian hostiles peasfully. This means that the FBI are specially trained to wait until it is a absolute must to use Deadly force. That is why they are trained specifically to know when that is. You are not. That is why you dont grasp this.

FBI are not specifically trained to use Deadly force when a suspect puts his hand on a holstered weapon. Because they are trained to know that the weapon is not a danger until it is out of the holster and pointing at them.

You dont understand this because you are not trained to.

This is how the FBI should have evaluated the threat from the subjects actions.

1. The subject walkes With his hands up away from the car.... : FBI should evaluate that as no imminent threat.

2. The subject lowers his hand as he is moving away from the car..... : The FBI should highten their awarness...threat Level raised. But there is no imminent threat, no weapon present. (At this point the FBI is shooting at the subject anyways)

3. The subject raises his hands again...: FBI should de-escalate threat Level. No imminent threat. (FBI agent keeps on shooting at the subject)

4. The suspect puts his hands towards his left hip... moves jacket.....: FBI should highten awareness. Threat Level raised. But there is no imminent threat. No gun is pulled out of the Hoslter. (FBI agent shots subject from behind)

Conclusion:

Since no gun was actually pulled from the holster. There was no imminent threat to the FBI.
The threat to use Deadly force should have been evaluted only if the subject pull weapon out of holster. Not when he puts his hand on a holsterd weapon. A holstered weapon is not a imminent threat to the FBI when they have weapon ready on the subject.

This was a execution. Where the FBI broke protocol by not trying to apprihent a civilian peacefully.

originally posted by: fartlordsupreme
a reply to: spy66

see thing is normally when some one surrenders they put their hands up and stop moving
had he stayed in the vehicle with his hand on the wheel or got out and immediately laid down with his hands on his head this would not have happened (regardless of the fact that this idiot pretty much did everything in his power before that to ensure it would)

See the thing is, LaVoy Finicum is an amazing HERO.... He drew fire away from the truck, saving the lives of those in it.... He will never be forgotten for his bravery!

Would you sit behind the wheel with bullets flying through the windshield?

LaVoy Finicum does something extremely brave, He jumps out of the truck saying shoot me, shoot me!!!! With his hands in the air...... saving his fellow occupants in the truck! That my friend is a amazing Hero....

and to read your lie on how officers showed incredible restraint is disgusting.... sick!

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
a reply to: TrueAmerican

There's no evidence that the stationary car was fired on, but we do know that this man was a paranoid whackdoodle with delusions of relevance. Trying to drive around a roadblock in the snow was a bad idea, running was a bad idea, reaching for his waistband was a bad idea. And yes, he will be forgotten.

No, but your irrelevant personal attack will be forgotten.

Still not one shred of proof he was shot before he reached. Too much speculation as well as assumptions going around this thread.

A man committing suicide by cop is anything but a hero. The occupants of the truck he launched himself out of would not have been in any danger had this man not resisted arrest, fled police, and assaulted law enforcement with said truck, etc.

This country has indeed run short of heroes if Lavoy Finicum is the best example we've got.