Proof of the danger of Conservative philosophy to life, health and the Welfare of people.

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: Willtell

So, when government proves its incompetence and causes harm, it is the fault of those who warned of the inevitability of that outcome?

Progressive logic and ideology dictates that they ignore that the problem they want more government to fix was invariably caused by government in the first place.

"The interventionist policies as practiced for many decades by all governments of the capitalistic West have brought about all those effects which the economists predicted. There are wars and civil wars, ruthless oppression of the masses by clusters of self-appointed dictators, economic depressions, mass unemployment, capital consumption, famines.

However, it is not these catastrophic events which have led to the crisis of interventionism. The interventionist doctrinaires and their followers explain all these undesired consequences as the unavoidable features of capitalism. As they see it, it is precisely these disasters that clearly demonstrate the necessity of intensifying interventionism. The failures of the interventionist policies do not in the least impair the popularity of the implied doctrine. They are so interpreted as to strengthen, not to lessen, the prestige of these teachings. As a vicious economic theory cannot be simply refuted by historical experience, the interventionist propagandists have been able to go on in spite of all the havoc they have spread.

Yet the age of interventionism is reaching its end. Interventionism has exhausted all its potentialities and must disappear."

-Ludwig von Mises

Exactly. They always forget how their grand solutions caused the problem in the first place and then blame the current state on capitalism. Part of the problem is that memories are short and it often times takes decades for the issues to show up. By then, the old progressives whose bright idea to intervene are usually long gone, but then you get a new crop of progressives who come along totally ignorant of what the previous ones did to create the problem and thus want even more intervention for the problems their progressive predecessors created.

a reply to: SM2

what are you talking about? the republican governor (Snyder) eliminated local control of governments across the state, and put in his own regional Republican Tzars and they ruled as dictators.....quit lying about who controls Michigan, this is squarely on the backs of the white republicans......41.5% of flint residences are below the poverty level, while the rest of Michigan is at 16.8 below poverty level. whites alone make up only 37.4% of flint, while statewide that percentage is 78.9%.....and....switching out city water WAS NOT done by local government, it was done by the state.....facts are facts, pal...here's the rest of the census data....
quickfacts.census.gov...

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: Willtell

So, when government proves its incompetence and causes harm, it is the fault of those who warned of the inevitability of that outcome?

Progressive logic and ideology dictates that they ignore that the problem they want more government to fix was invariably caused by government in the first place.

"The interventionist policies as practiced for many decades by all governments of the capitalistic West have brought about all those effects which the economists predicted. There are wars and civil wars, ruthless oppression of the masses by clusters of self-appointed dictators, economic depressions, mass unemployment, capital consumption, famines.

However, it is not these catastrophic events which have led to the crisis of interventionism. The interventionist doctrinaires and their followers explain all these undesired consequences as the unavoidable features of capitalism. As they see it, it is precisely these disasters that clearly demonstrate the necessity of intensifying interventionism. The failures of the interventionist policies do not in the least impair the popularity of the implied doctrine. They are so interpreted as to strengthen, not to lessen, the prestige of these teachings. As a vicious economic theory cannot be simply refuted by historical experience, the interventionist propagandists have been able to go on in spite of all the havoc they have spread.

Yet the age of interventionism is reaching its end. Interventionism has exhausted all its potentialities and must disappear."

-Ludwig von Mises

Exactly. They always forget how their grand solutions caused the problem in the first place and then blame the current state on capitalism. Part of the problem is that memories are short and it often times takes decades for the issues to show up. By then, the old progressives whose bright idea to intervene are usually long gone, but then you get a new crop of progressives who come along totally ignorant of what the previous ones did to create the problem and thus want even more intervention for the problems their progressive predecessors created.

Quite so, hopefully my excessive Mises quotations aren't tedious.

He saw this pattern so clearly that even half a century later, his comments seem like recent revelations, contextually indistinguishable from contemporary circumstances.

"The interventionist interlude must come to an end because interventionism cannot lead to a permanent system of social organization. The reasons are threefold.

First: Restrictive measures always restrict output and the amount of goods available for consumption. Whatever arguments may be advanced in favor of definite restrictions and prohibitions, such measures in themselves can never constitute a system of social production.

Second: All varieties of interference with the market phenomena not only fail to achieve the ends aimed at by their authors and supporters, but bring about a state of affairs which-from the point of view of their authors' and advocates' valuations--is less desirable than the previous state of affairs which they were designed to alter. If one wants to correct their manifest unsuitableness and preposterousness by supplementing the first acts of intervention with more and more of such acts, one must go farther and farther until the market economy has been entirely destroyed and socialism has been substituted for it.

Third: Interventionism aims at confiscating the "surplus" of one part of the population and at giving it to the other part. Once this surplus is exhausted by total confiscation, a further continuation of this policy is impossible."

-Ludwig von Mises

a reply to: Willtell

The proof is in the pudding that conservative, mostly GOP philosophy is dangerous to the life, limb, and welfare of people!

Can we stop with the partisan bull#... You state in your OP that this is about human beings, so how is pointing out the flaws in the GOP philosophy going to help the poor being neglected by both sides of the political spectrum? All you've proved is the partisan politics is not how you solve the issues plaguing any nation-state.

As much as I would identify more with left political principles, both sides are #ing terrible. End of story. Focus on the substance of the issues instead of using the issues to supply banter for your endless political diatribe.

It looks to me more like pure ignorance, and gross incompetence on multiple levels was the cause of this. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the different organizations involved in oversight, regulation, and operation of supplying the drinking water.

Anyways, as I understand it, corrosion control seems to the be real issue here. They switched(forced or not) water sources and failed to account for the more acidic water(treated or untreated with CL2 or other chemicals they may add), which started leaching lead off the older lead pipe systems. The two oversight bodies the EPA and MDEQ also missed that fact that the City of Flint had no corrosion control methods in place as well, and should share some of the blame as well.


Regardless, is not the City of Flint in charge of it's own water treatment ? Even if they were forced/directed/advised by the state in a boneheaded move to switch to river water, are they still not the ones finally responsible for how it is treated chemically with CL2, and it's P.H levels in the end ?

www.cityofflint.com...

a reply to: Willtell

THANK YOU!!! F/S

Brownback's "experiment" is a big fat fail.
In a way I'm glad ......because now people can see what actually happens when Dominionists (TED CRUZ) get power.

All the blather about God and Savior and "Jesus" during a Presidential Election Debate last night totally killed my appetite, and every time I think about it I feel nauseated. I have been doing my due diligence to watch ALL of the debates....the GOP stuff makes my skin crawl, and with Cruz front and center last night, I had to do it in very, very small doses (and kind of 'zone out' while he was talking, to avoid destroying my laptop)........

a reply to: Willtell

Personally, I believe that aligning ones-self to any political persuasion is damaging to your health and general mental stability.

Except that, much like Detroit, Flint has been run by Democrats for decades.

Dude, get your head out of the sand. Neither party cares about anybody or anything but their campaign donors, and they've got us at one another's throats. When it comes to things that help keep folks alive, like infrastructure, or things that help keep jobs here, like unfair free trade policies that give other countries unfair advantages over us, both parties pretty well agree that they don't give two figs about anybody that makes under about half a mil a year.

This is like saying it was the guy's right arm that cost me the boxing match, even though his left upper cut knocked you out.

R=D in my world.
And neither add up to something usually flushed down the toilet.

I wonder why the state did not believe the people who were using and paying for it all:

"The state downplayed and largely ignored the immediate complaints about the smell, color and taste of the water in 2014."

www.usatoday.com...

a reply to: Willtell

The Left is worse than conservatives in every way.

Issues with conservatives are the exception.

Issues with the left are the RULE

Google North Korea, the Khmer Rouge, etc

a reply to: MOMof3

The decision to switch to river water was wrong, not disagreeing with anyone on that.

The state agency MDEQ(Michigan Department of Enviromental Quality), which is the enforcement authority for drinking water in Michigan screwed up and didn't enforce or inform the City of Flint that corrosion control was necessary with the lower P.H source water. They are partially to blame of course, for not enforcing these rules on the City of Flint itself(I suppose I think of their role much like a Fire Inspector, Building Code Inspector, or Health Inspector)

However, they don't operate or run the City of Flint's water treatment, or have control or knowledge of their infrastructure. They are just an oversight body. Again, the operation of the water supply and it's chemical treatment, and testing is done by the City of Flint.

The City of Flint had an abundance of lead pipe in their infrastructure that they should have been aware of, and also aware that lower P.H levels from source water would leach lead off these pipes and pump it into drinking water. Even if the oversight bodies missed enforcing corrosion controls.....it's still very much on the City of Flint itself.

I apologize if I am wrong and the MDEQ or state was directly running the City of Flint's water treatment operation....but...I doubt that to be the case. EPA and MDEQ are just the oversight bodies as I understand it, the final product is in the hands of the City of Flint. A chemical additive that would have raised the P.H of the water added by them could have potentially prevented all this.

a reply to: Falenor
All very cavalier. I guess them black babies don't need clean water for their formula.

a reply to: MOMof3

There must be some confusion here. I was replying to your post in which you claimed that it was the all the State's fault.

I believe I pointed out that yes, it was partially the State of Michigan's fault, partially the two regulating bodies faults, and as well, yet mostly the City of Flint's fault itself as they are the end result of that drinking water....And then you went racial ? WOW.....

Well, to answer your question....yes...yes they do. The 57% black population needs proper drinking water, just as the other 37% white population does as well.

Please...stop reading so much into race baiting CNN, this is a crime, no doubt about it and someone needs to pay. However, it's more of a crime as a result of negligent City of Flint officials as I see it. Not some State conspiracy to poison a City.

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: Falenor
All very cavalier. I guess them black babies don't need clean water for their formula.

I don't think anyone is arguing that, but what we are pointing out is that the systems that bring water out of the tap in Flint (and every other town in America) are labyrinthine. They involve a ton of different people who have to all get their jobs right in order for that water to flow and come out clean and safe.

Too many bad links in the chain create the disaster you see in Flint, and it's a mistake to assume that any one is especially at fault. It took more than one f*** up to make it all go south and none of those mistakes had to be malicious in any way, shape, or form.

Of course, I have to wonder if you'd be so outraged if those babies weren't poor and black.

I don't see you upset over the poor people driven out of their homes by that continuing gas leak in Cali. Oh, but that's right, they're presumably all white and upper middle class. They're all fine even though they've all been driven out of their homes.

a reply to: Willtell

What's your solution?

a reply to: [post=20314813]ketsuko[/post

I don't see the comparison of gas and drinking water. It only proves how desparate you are to legitimize the poisoning of humans. A better question for you is why is that gas company still in business and spitting its poison?

Conservative politics and policies have NEVER once in the history of this country benefitted the working class and average person.

And they NEVER will.

Conservatism at it's very core is all about keeping the status quo.

a reply to: Falenor

If you really cared, you would dig into the facts as they are coming out. And if you are really honest, you will see. If a bunch of white people in a nice neighborhood had taken that kind of water sample to the state, are you really going to say they would have been ignored?

a reply to: MOMof3

I've given you facts, you've given racial hyperbole. I will say again for the 3rd or 4th time.....the City of Flint is in the end responsible for their water treatment. Yes, their hand seemed forced as they were switched to river water.....and I will say yet again.....if they added a chemical to increase the P.H of the their water then they would not have had this problem with lead leaching off lead piping. The City skipped this though....and the governing bodies didn't catch them on that either as I stated before.

If there are other facts, stats, or even rumors I'd be more than interested to hear them. No sarcasm here....I would be interested to here them as on one point you are correct. I will agree on this point: If a bunch of "rich" people complained about the taste, color, let alone lead content of their water....then yes...things would be different.