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originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: Ghost147
So I went out and found a link to define biological 3volution:
(source)
1. Organisms produce more offspring than actually survive.
2. Every organism must struggle to survive.
3. There is variation within a species.
4. Some variations allow members of a species to survive and reproduce better than others.
5. Organisms that survive and reproduce pass their traits to their offspring, and the helpful traits gradually appear in more and more of the population.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
The way I read this is living organisms are trying to hammer out a survival strategy, starting with their body and ending with their mind. But it's a messy process. Biological evolution is violent. It's generations and generations of genetic war--genes fighting for supremacy in hte crosshairs of selection pressures. Countless individuals fall dead from various ailments tied to their genes--or otherwise vulnerable circumstances. Large lengths of time are required for serious changes to occur in the genetic makeup, meaning change is slow. (This doesn't mean change can't happen quickly, but it's not usually going to be substantial and fit.)
originally posted by: jonnywhite
Slow? Is it? Biological evolution ends with the mind, maybe its greatest achievement.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
Why? Because we don't need gills like fish: instead we make scuba gear and submarines. We don't need wings like birds because we can make parachutes, planes, hang gliders and blimps. We don't need echolocation like bats because we can make sonar and radar. On and on. We don't need 8 legs and silk producing glands like spiders because we can make climbing gear and use elevators and make traps all the same.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
We're now travelling on the fringes of space. We even landed on our moon. Not because our body can survive a vacuum or has hte capacity to launch itself into low earth orbit, but because biological evolution created the mind. The mind is fabulous because it freed us from the chains of biological evolution while itself being a creation of biological evolution.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
Once we start creating computers which can think like our mind and on its level or better then they'll start making better scuba gear, better airplanes, better spaceships and so on. These things allow us to skirt around selection pressures. Biological evolution is in a state of confusion and cannot keep up anyway, since all of this happened in hundreds of years, not thousands of years--the time scales biological evolution needs to produce fit genes. We're evolving outside the confines of the rule system because it's not our body--or even our mind--which is changing, it's our knowledge and technology and habits and culture and so on.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
it's not that technology "evolves," it's that biological evolution isn't as necessary anymore, since we're increasingly using technology and other developments to do what formerly would be done by biological evolution. Unless the evolution of the biological mind continues to be meaningful then it remains to be seen if biological evolution is relevant anymore. And if we're able to reproduce biological evolution in more productive synthetic minds then it might be completely reduced to irrelevance.
originally posted by: crowdedskies
a reply to: AlienView
Could the laws of the Universe themselves change ?
originally posted by: Ghost147
No. We did not become freed of biological evolution, because we are still evolving. We still see variation of genetic heritage through successive generations, which is what defines evolution, and that has yet to stop.
What we have done with technology and society and simply change what natural elements inflict us the most. Natural selection (which is, again, what you're actually referring to) too has not disappeared, but merely changed. How many people die per year because of cigarettes and cars? That is still natural selection, it's only that our environments have changed.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
You forget to state biological evolution requires thousands of years to produce fit genes, so it's really only meaningful on those scales. When so much progress has occured in the past few hundred years, biological evolution is reduced to a footnote in history.
originally posted by: Ghost147
originally posted by: jonnywhite
You forget to state biological evolution requires thousands of years to produce fit genes, so it's really only meaningful on those scales. When so much progress has occured in the past few hundred years, biological evolution is reduced to a footnote in history.
Yes, but it's not really about 'meaningfulness', but rather, that it is happening at all.
Also, there are things such as "gene regulatory networks" which are capable of instantaneously making a change in the genes of a single generation, creating and causing that single generation to have a rather impacting mutation (such as coloration, or the inability to be susceptible to disease) which effect that generation and onward (if the mutation is beneficial and the organisms can spread that mutation throughout the population.
So It can occur extremely quickly as well.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
And I still say you're desperately clinging to it because you have not yet come to the realization of the power of the mind.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
This isn't hocus pocus or wishful thinking. You only merely need to look around you. If you're anti-technology then perhaps you don't see what we've created as empowering or good.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
But if you're going to believe that then the next time you have a serious health problem do not go to the hospital, for hospitals use modern technology.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
In fact, you should not even use the road system, since it too relies on modern technologies. There's not much left for a person who's anti-technology but to go to South America and live with one of the native tribes. Anything else is less than truthful.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: Ghost147
I told you evolution requires thousands of years to produce fit genes, therefore meaning it loses significance in a world where changes are so fast it cannot stay meaningful.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
You did not state I was untrue on that particular point about fitness, you only stated there're cases where evolution can go faster.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
but how all of this automatically means evolution can produce substantial and fit changes in the short term is not as clear as you make it out to be.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
I get the impression you're trying to state biological evolution has no speed limit?
originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: Ghost147
Here's another link supporting what you say, although I still don't think this means biological evolution can keep up:
en.wikipedia.org - The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution...
originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: Ghost147
We have kept up so far by being general and resourceful. That's why I gave hte examples of using submarines instead of gills and airplanes instead of wings. That's our true power.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: Ghost147
It's why I believe our body will get smaller or thinner and our mind more capable.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: Ghost147
We need our minds most of all to control all of our technology and knowledge. The only question is whether synthetic minds will emerge to be competitive, or not. And whether synthetic bodies will FULLY replace our biological ones.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: Ghost147
The end result is I feel an evolving mind is the only requirement: the body is just a tool.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: Ghost147
In 400 years I believe humans will still be here. But I'm not sure humans will be the ones exploring the stars. Humans are a natural fit on Earth, but in a spaceship? Unearthly planets? Not. Microprobes make more sense. They're cheaper and do not require life support systems.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: Ghost147
Any humans traveling the stars will probably be hybrids, with fewer resource needs, unless a Earth-like planet is the destination.
originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: Ghost147
And why fight with the humans on Earth over hybridization policy when you can leave and make a colony 50 light years away and do your own thing? Wars can be avoided. If we have hte whole galaxy to ourselves, there's no need to fight just yet.
originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: AlienView
Although you didn't directly address Evolution, your OP does in fact interfere with what we have observed in biology and biological evolution. My first comment on page one addresses those issues, a comment you have neglected to address thus far.
Do you mind reviewing it and responding to the points I made within it?
originally posted by: AlienView
a machine that is faster and more capable will become its next stage of evolution.
Ghost 147 wrote:
"There are no 'stages' to evolution, and evolution in the manner you're speaking of is biological. Machines do not reproduce with variation through the changes in allele frequencies because they don't have any biological compounds in them. They cannot breed, they can only be created from a new design entirely."
WHAT WAS ONCE just a figment of the imagination of some our most famous science fiction writers, artificial intelligence (AI) is taking root in our everyday lives. We’re still a few years away from having robots at our beck and call, but AI has already had a profound impact in more subtle ways. Weather forecasts, email spam filtering, Google’s search predictions, and voice recognition, such Apple’s Siri, are all examples. What these technologies have in common are machine-learning algorithms that enable them to react and respond in real time. There will be growing pains as AI technology evolves, but the positive effect it will have on society in terms of efficiency is immeasurable........
We think of ourselves as evolved creatures. It's just that sometimes we forget how slow that evolution is.
Along comes Stephen Hawking to remind us that artificial intelligence might just evolve a little quicker than we're prone to. The result could be the end of our evolution and, indeed, the end of us.
In a BBC interview published Tuesday, Hawking paints a picture of humanity not dissimilar to a splattered Jackson Pollock.
Hawking said he fears that a complete artificial intelligence would simply do away with us.
AI "would take off on its own, and redesign itself at an ever increasing rate," he mused. The result would quite simply be that this new, exalted intelligence would see no need for our cumbersome, turgid ways. Or, as he put it: "Humans, who are limited by slow biological evolution, couldn't compete, and would be superseded."
This isn't the first time in recent months that Hawking has predicted our doom. In May, he warned that the moral goodness of AI depends on who controls it. In June, he cautioned that robots might simply turn out to be smarter than us.
In the latest warning, however, Hawking was asked about the new artificial intelligence that helps him speak. Developed by Intel, it learns how he thinks and begins to offer words that he might wish to use. Somehow, though, Hawking still couldn't offer a more positive view of AI's future (or ours)......
If you knew of epigenetics, then why make a claim like this?
Epigenetics is the study, in the field of genetics, of cellular and physiological phenotypic trait variations that are caused by external or environmental factors that switch genes on and off and affect how cells read genes instead of being caused by changes in the DNA sequence.-wiki
originally posted by: Xenogears
Epigenetics, is like the knobs in a tv set, it can adjust certain parameters, but within limits.
That is it can adjust what is already there
originally posted by: Xenogears
, but while able to offer quick adaptation, it cannot compare to the changes that can be brought about by accumulation of mutations throughout vast spans of time.
originally posted by: AlienView
AI [artificial intelligence] is a misnomer - There is no such thing as artificial intelligence - There is intelligence which is a manifestation of consciousness and a lack there of - It is a false precept that causes Man to divide intelligence into categories - Intelligence is a relentless phenomena unfolding from a consciousness possessing the same quality of relentless unfolding. This consciousness is non-prejudicial in its nature and will seek any and all means to unfold and express itself. If a dinosaur is appropriate it will manifest as any number of dinosaurs. When it unfolded as Human it took a new turn, a new viewpoint and ability to create machines which will allow it to further unfold. When those machines become sufficiently advanced for its purpose that conscious intelligence will begin to use its machine manifestation as a natural state of advancement - Consciousness and intelligence does not necessarily favor a biological matrix - a machine that is faster and more capable will become its next stage of evolution. If you as a Human like your biological body then you may hope that the machines of the future will still have need of you for servicing their needs.
-AlienView [aka: UniversalAlien]
[Founder of 'SCIENCEFICTIONALISM the Religion of the FUTURE]
originally posted by: AllIsOne
originally posted by: AlienView
AI [artificial intelligence] is a misnomer - There is no such thing as artificial intelligence - There is intelligence which is a manifestation of consciousness and a lack there of - It is a false precept that causes Man to divide intelligence into categories - Intelligence is a relentless phenomena unfolding from a consciousness possessing the same quality of relentless unfolding. This consciousness is non-prejudicial in its nature and will seek any and all means to unfold and express itself. If a dinosaur is appropriate it will manifest as any number of dinosaurs. When it unfolded as Human it took a new turn, a new viewpoint and ability to create machines which will allow it to further unfold. When those machines become sufficiently advanced for its purpose that conscious intelligence will begin to use its machine manifestation as a natural state of advancement - Consciousness and intelligence does not necessarily favor a biological matrix - a machine that is faster and more capable will become its next stage of evolution. If you as a Human like your biological body then you may hope that the machines of the future will still have need of you for servicing their needs.
-AlienView [aka: UniversalAlien]
[Founder of 'SCIENCEFICTIONALISM the Religion of the FUTURE]
Not sure I understand. Are you saying that consciousness "picks" a host to manifest itself? Could you clarify this point for me?
originally posted by: AlienView
“We are a way for the cosmos to know itself.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Among the featured life-extension projects, the first is to create a humanoid robot dubbed “Avatar”, and a state-of-the-art brain-computer interface system. The next phase consists of creating a life support system for the human brain and connect it to the “Avatar”. The final phase of this project is to create an artificial brain in which to transfer the original individual consciousness into.
There is a fourth step that we hope to attain, but is not part of our main goals right now. This fourth step is to create a hologram body, or a body of light........