Why are the biblical lists of the 12 tribes of Israel so different from each other?

originally posted by: Gnosisisfaith
a reply to: chr0naut

I don't think the real Apostles took him seriously enough to care what he thinks. They knew Jesus, he didn't. He was nobody, a joke, even Jesus rejected him as one of those who say they are apostles but are not. Not everything is as simple as you would like it to be. Because of Saul the Pharisee

For 2,000 years, Christianity has held that Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.

It is Islam and the Gnostic heretics that have proposed that he is a false prophet, and also very late in the piece (hundreds, if not thousands of years after the fact).

Paul did not expound any new theology that was not fully supported by the gospels and the letters of the other New Testament writers that have now become canon.

In the First and Second Epistles of John, he speaks out against Docetics, Gnostics and other heretics and particularly against the proto-gnostic Cerinthus, Yet he doesn't speak out against Paul and you are suggesting that Paul was not important enough to bother speaking out against. That is not particularly valid reasoning.

If you knew enough about Gnosticism you would know that the original Gnostics under Valentinus considered the Book of Ephesians (written by Paul) as a primary source. Marcion (considered a Gnostic philosopher) also referred to Epistles of Paul to support the idea of baptism of the dead.

We have no evidence traditional or written, that anyone contemporary with Pauls' ministry had anything bad to say about him. To say that there was is to ignore the evidence.

originally posted by: Sigismundus
a reply to: DISRAELI
This idea of removing certain Tribes because of lapses back into idolatry does make a certain amount of sense, except that the tribe of Levi was also associated with idolatry, (the Aaronid Golden Calf episode and the Mu#e Bronze Serpent on a Stick episode) surely ?

By the time Revelation is written, the confederacy has ceased to exist, so the status of individual tribes no longer matters anyway.
For the purpose of the symbolic message about the "sealed community", it is enough that Levi was militantly faithful at Shiittim and other places and gave long-term service in the priesthood.

Interestingly perhaps Deuteronomy 33 has yet another list placed into the mouth of Mosheh where Simeon seems to be missing -

This is one of the clues about the history of Simeon.
In Genesis, Simeon and Levi attack the town of Shechem, pointing to a time when they were strong in the central highlands.
Genesis ch49 laments their violent anger, and predicts that they will be "scattered" in Israel.
When the tribal allotments are listed in Joshua, Simeon is nothing more than a few settlements in the south of Judah. Scattered indeed.
(I have a theory that the Merneptah stele, if it really does announce victory over "Israel", is the historical record of the "scattering" of Simeon and Levi)
The prophet Ahijah divides his cloak into twelve pieces and hands over ten to Jeroboam, saying that God will give Jeroboam ten tribes and hold back Judah for the house of David. I would assume that Simeon is the unnamed "eleventh" tribe which stays with Judah.
Thus Simeon gets eclipsed, and I think their absence from the probably later collection of sayings in Deuteronomy ch33 reflects that eclipse.

a reply to: chr0naut

It's the fake christians who think Saul is a real apostle. Bad at math I guess. Or they can't spot an obvious fraud. Anyone who uses the world heretic id falling for 2000 year old propaganda written by their enemies and extremely bias. Not every Gnostic rejects Saul, so you are clueless. People who are astute rejecte Paul, like all of Asia and the Apostles themselves.

a reply to: chr0naut

Sorry, but Jesus chose the number 12 for a sacred reason. It can't be violated. At the end of revelation in the vision of new Jerusalem the word 12 is used four times, the last is the name of THE 12 Apostles. Saul isn't recognized by Jesus Christ himself.

a reply to: chr0naut

You are ignoring the evidence. All of Asia rejected Saul. He writes this himself. Jesus congratulates them for it. You ignore that too. How about his constant lying, even about the real Apostles. And under oath. He claims hell die for Christ, but when given the chance, appeals to Caesar. I am a Pharisee he said, even after his alleged conversion. This man is a creep. You don't have eyes capable of seeing that Saul destroyed Jesus simple message and caused nothing but confusion. I honestly feel sorry for you. What's obvious to a wise man is invisible to a fool.

What i understand is that these are twelve small tribes teaching/preaching the message of "Jesus" at around 12kya spooring "advanced cultures" around the world aligned with the equator and near parts of it, where they could use a fixated point in the night sky.. These people emigrated from India.. First mention of them comes with the babylonians and they called one of the tribes Sumerian..

a reply to: kumiho

That's true Abraham originally came from India. Abraham and Sarah are based off of Brahma and Sarasvati of Hindu fame. They were both even brother/sister and consorts. Abraham reveals the second time he pulls the shes my sister scam that she is his father's daughter, but not his mothers. Which makes sense because incest deformities occur if you have the same mother, but not father.

a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

What i understand is that Brahman or the cosmic principle changed in/with the old testament and the Jews ( origin dark skinned people ) and became Abraham, the narrative of the Moses story and the burning bush has to do with the religion of the same which has a fire pillar that they worship, or the fire worshiper.
Which follows with the trinity always, or the three ages of man. Or which the hindu preaches, three different stages of life, or the Kaumara, Yauvana and the Vardhakya ( 13-19 ; 20 - 59 ; 60 + ).

So when you go back in history you see the principles for all religions come from a small part in India.

a reply to: Sigismundus

S&F based upon how the thread has evolved by a couple of posters.

Continue the dialog. You know why......

a reply to: kumiho
Interesting, my knowledge of the subject of Brahman is young. But I enjoyed your comment. Judaism is the Kramer of religions. Always borrowing stuff and keeping it as their own. I guess its natural. They are some sharp people, that's for sure. I think Abraham either was or taught the Persian prophet Zoroaster. And the Persians freed them from Babylonian captivity later and they influenced Judaism to become a one God religion(outwardly).

a reply to: kumiho

Another interesting guy is Nimrod. Known in Egypt as osiris. Nimrod was the source of. Christmas, date and traditions. All of it is pagan, Christmas that is. Imagine that? Barely anyone knows either

a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

The very essence of Christmas comes from the Winter Solstice when the sun is at the same place for three days, or in biblical terms resurrection of Christ, from the 21-24 of december, where you before had sacrifices to a good and healthy year and a good crop.

One example is the druids, which came from Egypt and the stonehenge monument..

Nimrod and the tower of babel, ( primitive observatory ) where you use a fixated celestial body to dictate seasons for neolithic societies or agriculture.. same observatories has been seen all over the world..

The same tribe was in Persia also so you are right...

a reply to: kumiho

Zeitgeist the documentary says there is a constellation called crux behind the sun, jesus rose on the third day, as does the sun at solstice. I don't know if it is true though, zeitgeist hasn't been that reliable on religion.

a reply to: kumiho

Garden of Eden is a common Mesopotamian/Akkadian myth told differently, the serpent is often the hero of such stories.

a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

I know the meaning of the serpent, and i prefer not to disclose it since it would do no one any good..



Solstice South America



Solstice Egypt



Solstice Egypt



Solstice Stonehenge



Solstice Stonehenge

Zeitgeist had a few rights but much was inaccurate, the myth of the Rose comes from the day when "Jesus Rose" which i have a hard time believing.

The serpent mythology is in every corner of the world.. I know where it is, be glad you dont =)

a reply to: kumiho
Serpent mythology is everywhere. The ama logo moses staff and serpent worship is probably the oldest religion in the world. I do want to know what you mean though. Please tell me.

a reply to: kumiho

Do you mean a race of serpent people? Shapeshifting reptilians?I thought the purpose of the myth was the abolition of serpent worship. In the Sumerian accounts Ea was in the serpents role and he was a hero for educating man. Was ea reptilian? I have been obsessed with figuring out why serpent gods were so prevalent. It's got me totally stumped

a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

No im sorry, i cant.. Try to learn as much as you can, maybe one day you will understand =)

a reply to: kumiho
I actually theorized that they were banished to inner earth based on his punishment. But I don't know.

a reply to: kumiho

That's not cool, but whatever.