Would you support social engineering aimed at reforming Islam?

a reply to: tadaman

There are many, actually I think MOST...Muslims who identify as "Moderate" but still admit that Sharia Law should be adhered to before the Constitution, and that if possible Sharia Law would be a world governing Theosophy.

So when I hear "Moderate" I think...."For whom"??

a reply to: Stormdancer777

what if religion as we have come to know it always breaks down to territorial control over tribute.

Religion can send you to foreign lands to push your ideas on the people there to force them to give tribute to the religious authority of the faith.

You dont need religion though. Any idea can do that. Patriotism turned to nationalism, Cultural pride turned into racial supremacy, social justice turned into oppressive mandates, what ever.

In all these cases of an idea being used to gain earthly control a perversion happens. In some cases its easier than others. You can convince a poor white kid in the south to be racist as easily as a poor Arab kid in the ME to become a radical.

Its not about wealth or education entirely though. A rich white guy in the south can become a racist leader like a rich Arab man in the ME can become a radical leader. The motivations of people are nearly impossible to divine. You must then not facilitate bad behaviors considering how little is certain in any type of human society.

If there was a social understanding in the south to be racist in certain "justifiable" circumstances, then it would be a problem and directly opposed to any solution to racism.

If there is a social understanding in the ME to support extremist interpretations of Islams Tenets in certain circumstances, then it too is a problem and directly opposed to a possible solution to "Radical" Islam, or a STRICT interpretation of penalties for not following the rules.

Maybe the rules need an edit.....or two. Maybe not. I dont know. I am more curious than decided.

This is what I love about the internet you have history at your fingertips,

Did you know the first organized war was fought over resources.

It's always about survival.

The first recorded water war occurred more than 4,500 years ago in modern-day Iraq, near the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Fought between the neighboring ancient city-states of Lagash and Umma over the region known then as "Gu'edena" ("edge of paradise"), the conflict started when the king of Lagash diverted water to canals, depriving Umma from a fresh water supply. This ancient "resource war" is one of the earliest known organized battles in history. - See more at: www.justmeans.com...

And I would bet their gods told them to is somewhere in there.

We can't deny that migrants flooding Europe doesn't have something to do with resources,and survival, fueled by religion.

originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain
a reply to: tadaman

There are many, actually I think MOST...Muslims who identify as "Moderate" but still admit that Sharia Law should be adhered to before the Constitution, and that if possible Sharia Law would be a world governing Theosophy.

So when I hear "Moderate" I think...."For whom"??

Before the new Caliphate started committing mass genocide, radical extremism was forcing Sharia onto populations, now forcing Sharia onto populations is viewed as moderate in the sense that it is not as extreme as mass executions distributed out to the world via social media.

As long as there are subhuman infidels, there will never be any true moderates in that religion.

a reply to: tadaman

It is the way it has always been.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

That is true. All things are as they are, but

Things do also change at an unperceived rate. We think allot is static when it is in fact in a state of flux.

Judeo-Christian thought has evolved somewhat from its origins. It is currently undergoing yet another transformation we cant hope to see the full scope of. I think that is important.

These things make us move away from insecurities of being wrong and into allowing others to decide for themselves.

A christian getting angry and demanding action against something religiously offensive is as bad as a Muslim doing the same.

These types of people SHOULD be a minority no matter the faith or culture. Not denouncing them is like a Christian not denouncing radical Christian interpretations of intolerance. I would not like that Christian based on his Christian choices. If it was a group of Christians supporting radical Christianity I would feel more strongly about it as that poses a threat of greater influence and as such imposed growth into the space and area of influence of others.

It really is about change. Just whats acceptable to us.

Social engineering when teaching people how to keep living standards up so as to not get sick, pollute their homes, mistreat their weaker members of society, ect are all good things.

Some social engineering is good. We attribute the word to a devious action by secret groups. In reality charity work and social programs aimed at conscientiousness and awareness of improved standards are not natural. They are artificial efforts that DO WORK and improve life for all.

What if a generation of young Muslims rewrote the rules and decided that the worst forms of punishment were outright WRONG. That the idea of others NOT being Muslims is the end result of Gods plan. Ect.

it would be great if they did it on their own.

Islam doesn't need reform. Especially since it's not the job of social reform to reform religion. That could involve violating the separation of church and state being violated if the government participates. As a Muslim myself, and as an American, I find the prospect sickening that non Muslims would have a say in anything Muslim. Reform yourselves, Christianity isn't aware of its own problems because they are always complaining about everyone elses. Social reforms should be about making life better, and have no religious aspirations. That sounds like a Christian idea, enforced religious "reform" under the guise of social reform. Despicable, I'm more proud of being a Muslim now than ten minutes ago. Thanks.

a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

Hey no problem. I feel the same way about some Christians. I think the Catholic supreme leader of the church recently said that Gays are not sinners. Thats what I am talking about. In the west we are all for that sort of tolerance.

If you think getting a freaking pope to say that didnt have any influence from non Catholics then fine. But you are wrong. Gay atheists were as much a part of that as rational Catholics, mainly the pope.

I will not contain these thoughts. Some things are wrong and as they make their way into a interconnected world they have to prove their worth.

There is allot competing and "just because" isnt a good enough reason. I ask WHY and WHY NOT.

thats a common ethos of our people....just saying. This planet is our collective HOME. We have more than a right. You dont have a right to deny us that in our home.

You should feel proud of your society where we can disagree. Not a faith I have not attacked but asked for analysis of and posed a legitimate question to : if more concerted efforts are not needed to remedy a problem MY PEOPLE have with what is a NEW CULTURE to ours. Integration and coexistence considered, we should all listen and stop walking away from the table when we are upset.

It would be valid to apply a similar critical lense over Christianity or Judaism, and many do. If it gets us closer to a satisfactory solution for all then whats the problem???!!! As it stands, its not good enough. We all agree on that. This is not it....just pretending things are cool is not going to work. Somethings are not compatible and others are outright against our peoples ethos. If we are to share this world and allow our DIFFERENT peoples to live side by side as they HAVE NEVER DONE, we need to reevaluate what our dear ancestors left us with. That goes for us ALL.

a reply to: tadaman

As long as all parties are willing participants with no ties to the government im all for change. But Islam is being blamed for things PEOPLE are doing, and lessening human responsibility aspects when nobody is blaming Christianity for dropping bombs and occupying foreign land at a huge loss of life. That's America. So when some syrians and Iraqis start a militia and try to make it a government Muslims suffer the most. They have gangster governments and bombs falling on their country, they don't blame Christianity, they are getting along with each other, its there government that's evil. Sound familiar?

a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

its there government that's evil. Sound familiar?

all too much so.

I just hope they stop electing the most religious as government leaders. I hope the thought of religious laws having a place over organic law makes people cringe, not smile.

Hey no ill will on my part man.
have a good one.
Hold it down.

No, but I do support reforming media so the weight of news reports is indicative of its impact on society. Media wants you to fear terrorism as the greatest threat against society regardless of the fact that far greater people die in homicides, automotive accidents, even police shootings. So I am guessing that the unwarranted fear driven by media is hiding a far greater danger.

Perhaps its the fact that within 15 years, the total tax revenue of the US will be totally spent on interest of debt, social care and Medicare with nothing remaining to pay federal employees, Military industrial Complex or even schools.

The media is the pied piper

a reply to: TheTory

Islam will not reform until it can allow itself to be superseded by the laws of men.

Islam will reform as Muslims reform. The Muslims of the current diaspora could stand to learn from the experiences of their Jewish cousins. Over the centuries Judaism adapted to accommodate the cultures that Jews found themselves living in. They learned to respect "man made" over that in their religious texts without abandoning the heart of their faith. Many first generation Muslim immigrants have already begun to adapt; the current wave of violence is the result of the younger generation rejecting their parents' "compromises." They will eventually get over it... or perish.

a reply to: DJW001

Islam doesn't need to reform. Islam is not any different than any other religion. Bad people need reform. Islam is just fine. I'm a Muslim, and I can tell you my religion is suffering the most from terrorism and war. Is it Christianitys fault every time a bomb lands in Iraq? Worry about your religion, if you wanna complain about Islam learn it first.

a reply to: DJW001
Do you think it's ok that jews took by force a land they had no right to?

a reply to: DJW001

Im no jew hater, but they still have their own religious laws that only apply to jews and this they hold above any law. They are also terrorists, go to Palestine, you'll see terrorism. You think Israel has no negative impact on society think again. And they have no genetic connection to Israel, but are jews by conversion from ancient northern Turkey. Why do you think they are white? Semitic people are brown. Just saying, whos really causing all the trouble?

originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: tadaman

The general difference between Islam and other religions is that Islam rejects secular law as irrelevant or even blasphemous compared to the laws of God. The laws of God are subject to interpretation, and are essentially as indistinct as God itself is. The laws of man can be reformed and augmented according the the dictates of men, while the laws of God, cannot.

Islam will not reform until it can allow itself to be superseded by the laws of men.

I disagree in that the people who comprise the body of Islam vary widely. There are many American Muslims who are completely aligned with our ideas, I think your perspective does not give nearly enough weight to the influence of culture and nurture.

I don't think so.
For good or for ill, it is better to have extremist than thought crime.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: TheTory

Islam will not reform until it can allow itself to be superseded by the laws of men.

Islam will reform as Muslims reform. The Muslims of the current diaspora could stand to learn from the experiences of their Jewish cousins. Over the centuries Judaism adapted to accommodate the cultures that Jews found themselves living in. They learned to respect "man made" over that in their religious texts without abandoning the heart of their faith. Many first generation Muslim immigrants have already begun to adapt; the current wave of violence is the result of the younger generation rejecting their parents' "compromises." They will eventually get over it... or perish.

This is exactly right IMO.

Islam was established 600 years after Christ, and 600 years ago law/morality was directed Christianity/religion and we all know burning people alive, drowning, stoning and disemboweling was part and parcel of a religion that was 1,400 years old.

Mat Allah bless you all. Even if you have the wrong idea about Islam. Try not to be ignorant, the government wants you to hate Islam. Don't listen to the government. They bomb people.

originally posted by: Gnosisisfaith
a reply to: DJW001

Islam doesn't need to reform. Islam is not any different than any other religion. Bad people need reform. Islam is just fine. I'm a Muslim, and I can tell you my religion is suffering the most from terrorism and war. Is it Christianitys fault every time a bomb lands in Iraq? Worry about your religion, if you wanna complain about Islam learn it first.

Where did I complain about Islam?