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originally posted by: hellobruce
originally posted by: MotherMayEye
I had never even heard of the issue until Obama.
That is simply because Obama is the first black President.
originally posted by: hellobruce
originally posted by: MotherMayEye
So far, those who have raised the question regarding the definition of 'natural born Citizen' with the courts, during the last eight years, have been found to not have standing to pursue the answer.
Very wrong, actually.
For example have a look at Ankeny v. Daniels.
I have spent a lot of time reading about this issue, over the last eight years,
Yet you missed all the cases where they had standing....
To put it another way, someone born 'on the soil' of two citizen parents is a natural born U.S. citizen,
So someone born from a widowed mother cannot be a natural born citizen...
If he is not a natural born citizen,
Except he is, as the courts have declared!
Like many people, I just want the issue laid to rest no matter the outcome.
It has been laid to rest, but some people refuse to accept that fact!
originally posted by: schuyler
Nevertheless, the ONLY reason this is an issue is because some people want to use it as a potential way to disqualify a candidate they don't like. It has no real substance. It's splitting hairs, counting the number of angels on the head of a pin. That doesn't mean a lot of people won't put a substantial amount of effort into it, but let's not pretend this is simply because of some lofty idea that they want to "clarify the issue."
What they want is to disqualify Cruz the same way the "birthers" wanted to disqualify Obama.
Interestingly, the first argument in the motion goes to a lack of standing. That would be pretty much a standard approach to lawsuits anyway, but perhaps not the most politic of arguments. The motion argues that the question raises only a general claim of injury to the plaintiff rather than a “particularized” injury. While that’s based on plenty of precedent, it might rub some who see standing as a barrier to properly enforcing the Constitution the wrong way. That irritation might increase with the second major argument based on Berg v Obama that eligibility is “a non-justiciable political argument,” although again based on substantial precedent. Politically, Rubio is on much firmer ground with his positive argument in the latter part of the motion on what makes him an eligible candidate.
Nevertheless, the ONLY reason this is an issue is because some people want to use it as a potential way to disqualify a candidate they don't like.
originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: MotherMayEye
I just saw this:
Of course: Lawsuits filed in Texas, Florida over constitutional eligibility
Interestingly, the first argument in the motion goes to a lack of standing. That would be pretty much a standard approach to lawsuits anyway, but perhaps not the most politic of arguments. The motion argues that the question raises only a general claim of injury to the plaintiff rather than a “particularized” injury. While that’s based on plenty of precedent, it might rub some who see standing as a barrier to properly enforcing the Constitution the wrong way. That irritation might increase with the second major argument based on Berg v Obama that eligibility is “a non-justiciable political argument,” although again based on substantial precedent. Politically, Rubio is on much firmer ground with his positive argument in the latter part of the motion on what makes him an eligible candidate.
Unfortunately, the article doesn't say what Rubio's "positive argument" is.
But I believe this brings the number of lawsuits thus far filed to three: these two, plus Paige in Vermont.
I wonder if a class action lawsuit is a possible approach and way of avoiding the particularized legal injury obstacle...
It almost seems the plaintiffs in most of these NBC cases are either daft, incompetent, or perhaps even sabotage their own efforts. Provocateurs?
originally posted by: MotherMayEye
So far, those who have raised the question regarding the definition of 'natural born Citizen' with the courts, during the last eight years, have been found to not have standing to pursue the answer. This is because they cannot demonstrate a legal injury to the Courts.
Given that there is no written law that says a person born on undisputed U.S. soil to two U.S. citizen parents is a citizen,
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside...
I believe this particular definition is the natural law. No positive law is necessary to deem such a person a citizen -- they are a citizen according to natural law alone.
Natural law is a philosophy that certain rights or values are inherent by virtue of human nature, and universally cognizable through human reason. Historically, natural law refers to the use of reason to analyze both social and personal human nature to deduce binding rules of moral behavior. The law of nature, being determined by nature, is universal.
To put it another way, someone born 'on the soil' of two citizen parents is a natural born U.S. citizen, because there is no other option at their birth. There is no other nation to be loyal to, subject to, or one day choose…so their one and only allegiance is to their nation of birth and blood.
That is the epitome of nature -- coming solely from nature's creation rather than man-made laws or personal whim. Human rights further dictate that a person should never be stateless.
3
a (1) : begotten as distinguished from adopted; also : legitimate (2) : being a relation by actual consanguinity as distinguished from adoption
the court observed that "new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization"
originally posted by: schuyler
You're either a citizen, a naturalized citizen, or not a citizen. Cruz is not a naturalized citizen; he is a citizen because his mother is a citizen. I just used "naturalized' in its proper context. One parent being a citizen makes you a citizen, no matter where you were born.
We went through the same thing with Obama.
We went through the same thing with McCain.
Yes, the "circumstances" were different in both.
Now, you want SCOTUS to resolve the issue. It's very unlikely to happen, nor does it need to. This is being used by some people as a political club to spread FUD. I know this is earth-shatteringly important to a certain subset of people who cannot stand the ambiguity involved, but most people do not have a problem with it and believe these "concerns" are contrived, irrelevant, and politically motivated. Now the only thing this group of people has to do now is
get over it.
begotten as distinguished from adopted
The issue now revolves around the question of whether the parents were in the US legally. The argument taking shape is being in the US illegally and having a child would not grant them automatic US citizenship.
Texas has been refusing to issue birth certificates to illegals by refusing to accept the ID's mexico has issued to them. Scotus upheld the action taken by Texas.
“Before issuing any official documents, it’s important for the state to have a way to accurately verify people are who they say they are through reliable identification mechanisms,”
“While the Court is very troubled at the prospect of Texas-born children, and their parents, being denied issuance of a birth certificate,"... (and) the families’ attorneys had “provided evidence which raises grave concerns regarding the treatment of citizen children born to immigrant parents, the court needed more evidence before issuing the emergency injunction they had sought".