Ted Cruz was born in Canada

a reply to: Spider879

I have to say that because there was never a definition in the constitution for what constituted a natural born citizen we do have a bit of a problem now. Anyone who does not need to go through any immigration/naturalization process seems to be able to be defined as a natural born citizen, even to parents who for all intents and purposes have little affinity for these United States. You can practically be an American hating ex-patriot living abroad and your children will still be considered natural born, provided they live in the US for a few years before they turn 18.

That to me, is not right. It was difficult running down the various laws on all these things as well. I would be reading one book and a sentence would be in the law in one book, and in the next book the sentence had magically disappeared, and I was left trying to figure out why it was removed from the law.

I think we do need a more stringent definition of natural born for someone who would lead this country as senator or president or other official positions, simply because I think they should be raised first and foremost with love of this country. I don't like the idea that someone who is practically an ex-patriot could raise their children in other countries, teach them to hate America and its constitution, yet still have their children be eligible for the presidency, provided they made sure to move back for a few years.

It is would have to be an amendment, basically create three tiered citizenship. Natural born citizen, citizen, and naturalized or something of the sort. We need to define exactly what should create an eligibility for the presidency verses simply a citizenship; a child who is the child of 2 parents who are natural born citizens, being born on American soil within the continental United States unless born on a military base to parents serving their country. (or some such wording) This leaves first generation citizens out yes, but for good reason as it establishes a longer relationship between the family and the values this country has, as a nation.

I think as loose as our citizenship laws are, and as far gone from those original laws we seem to be, we probably ought to consider it, lest we end up with people being planted in our government who have the intention of simply taking it down, and not leading us at all.

a reply to: Kitana

You can practically be an American hating ex-patriot living abroad and your children will still be considered natural born, provided they live in the US for a few years before they turn 18.

Yes. Just as the child of an American hating person living in the US can be.

I think we do need a more stringent definition of natural born for someone who would lead this country as senator or president or other official positions, simply because I think they should be raised first and foremost with love of this country.

And how do you ensure that has happened?

This leaves first generation citizens out yes, but for good reason as it establishes a longer relationship between the family and the values this country has, as a nation.

Again, you are making an assumption that parents that live within the borders of the country will instill "the values this country has" (whatever that means) and that those who do not will not. Neither one is valid.

I think a lot of new comers are gun-ho about being an American, especially if they are coming from a place where there is strife , yes they may have a sense of nostalgia for the old country but it's my experience that they rarely take being an American for granted.

a reply to: yesyesyes

I was just reading an article which pointed out some interesting aspects of this case. It involves the Canadian citzenship law at the time of Cruz's birth.
[url=http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231093]

There's a clean question on the table regarding dual citizenship for persons born in Canada prior to 1977 (when they changed their law to officially recognize dual nationality.)

Prior to that date, with few exceptions, you could not hold dual nationality with Canada. In other words the very act of "renouncing" Canadian Citizenship means that Cruz never held US citizenship at birth because his parents had to declare his nationality at the time he was born.

When you couple this with the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, the phrase "natural born citizen" seems to get a little easier to understand.
Of course, if you insist upon involking the that requirement, you might just mention section § 215 of "The Law of Nations or the Principles of Natural Law (1758)" which speaks to "Children of citizens born in a foreign country."

It is asked whether the children born of citizens in a foreign country are citizens? The laws have decided this question in several countries, and their regulations must be followed.2 By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers, and enter into all their rights (§ 212); the place of birth produces no change in this particular, and cannot, of itself, furnish any reason for taking from a child what nature has given him; I say “of itself,” for, civil or political laws may, for particular reasons, ordain otherwise. But I suppose that the father has not entirely quitted his country in order to settle elsewhere. If he has fixed his abode in a foreign country, he is become a member of another society, at least as a perpetual inhabitant; and his children will be members of it also.

I believe this to be the basis of thinking at the time when the qualifications for President of the United States was written in to the Constitution.
All together, this would mean Ted Cruz is a Canadian citizen who has been elected and is serving as a Senator of the United States.
Now I must ask; is this, itself, legal for a foreign national to be serving in this capacity?

originally posted by: tinymind
It involves the Canadian citzenship law at the time of Cruz's birth.

Any law Canada (or any other nation) makes cannot affect a natural born US citizen, like Cruz.

There's a clean question on the table regarding dual citizenship for persons born in Canada prior to 1977 (when they changed their law to officially recognize dual nationality.)

Again, Canadian law has nothing to do with American citizenship.

Prior to that date, with few exceptions, you could not hold dual nationality with Canada.

Once again, Canadian law does not affect US citizenship.

Of course, if you insist upon involking the that requirement, you might just mention section § 215 of "The Law of Nations or the Principles of Natural Law (1758)"

Those books are NOT US law, so they have nothing to do with it.

By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers,

So how did they get on before DNA testing?

All together, this would mean Ted Cruz is a Canadian citizen

Why ignore the fact he renounced his Canadian citizenship?
edition.cnn.com...://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/11/politics/ted-cruz-canada-citizenship/

who has been elected and is serving as a Senator of the United States.
Now I must ask; is this, itself, legal for a foreign national to be serving in this capacity?

Why do you ignore the fact he is also a natural born US citizen?

a reply to: hellobruce

All of what you say is very well and good.

However, if his parents declared his citizenship at the time of his birth, which was required by law, then it should be reflected upon his birth certificate. I have never seen it so I can not answer this question my self.
If his parents declared him to be American at the time of his birth, he would not have felt the need to "renounce" his Canadian citizenship. If they had declared him as an American citizen he could easily "short circuit" any questions by simply stating this as fact.

Until we see said documentation, we can forget any real discussion about "natural born citizen".
At least Obama was born on American soil.

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: darkbake
He is a natural born citizen because one of his parents was a full citizen of the United States.

Funny how people didn't think this way when it came to Obama.

They didnt need to because the claim has always been that he was born in hawai.

originally posted by: tinymind
If his parents declared him to be American at the time of his birth, he would not have felt the need to "renounce" his Canadian citizenship.

He was a dual citizen.... both a Canadian citizen, and a natural born US citizen.

a reply to: hellobruce

It would seem someone does not have a very firm grasp of the reality of this particular situation.

At the time of Ted Cruz birth his parents had to declare his citizen ship.
If they did not declare him to be an American, because of his mother being one, then it would have been assumed he was a Canadian citizen. If he felt the need to renounce his "Canadian citizenship", then he could not have EVER been an American by birth at any point in his life.
At the time of Ted Cruz birth Canada did not recognize duel citizenship with any other country. Without have such a police in place, there is no way for anyone to now make the claim of duel citizenship before the law was changed.

This should allow anyone to easily assume him to have NEVER been a "natural born citizen" of the United States in any way shape form or fashion.

Someone really needs to learn how to do some critical thinking on their own. I have been told that "yes, it hurts a little at first", but with some continuing effort and the passage of time most people become accustom to doing it.

originally posted by: tinymind
At the time of Ted Cruz birth his parents had to declare his citizen ship.

Sure about that? Where exactly is that stated?

If they did not declare him to be an American, because of his mother being one,

What makes you think they have to "declare" him a US citizen?

If he felt the need to renounce his "Canadian citizenship", then he could not have EVER been an American by birth at any point in his life.

Yes he could, as Canadian citizenship is not mutually exclusive with a natural born US citizen.

At the time of Ted Cruz birth Canada did not recognize duel citizenship with any other country.

Once again, no law Canada makes can affect that Cruz is a natural born US citizen!

Without have such a police in place, there is no way for anyone to now make the claim of duel citizenship before the law was changed.

Just why do you think a law made by any other country can affect a US citizen citizenship?

Someone really needs to learn how to do some critical thinking on their own.

That would be you.... otherwise Cuba could have declared anyone born in the USA also has Cuban citizenship, thus according to your twisted thinking no one could become US President!

a reply to: hellobruce

That would be you.... otherwise Cuba could have declared anyone born in the USA also has Cuban citizenship, thus according to your twisted thinking no one could become US President!

I fear I am at a lose for words for expressing my graditude at you making my case for me.
When any one gives full consideration to the content of your last statement, I am sure they will fully agree with my position.

Hint--Hint: If you are born in a country, most people would think you are a citizen. If you are not born in a country, most people would think you are not a citizen.

Why does the US have this puerile, childish and embarassing obsession with where someone was born rather than how good they are for the job?

No wonder you get such pathetic candidates. You deserve what you get. But sadly the World suffers too ....


Maybe you should enter the 20th century?

a reply to: AndyMayhew

Yeah this pesky little document called the Constitution. Amending it is kind of a big deal.

originally posted by: AndyMayhew
Why does the US have this puerile, childish and embarassing obsession with where someone was born rather than how good they are for the job?

No wonder you get such pathetic candidates. You deserve what you get. But sadly the World suffers too ....


Maybe you should enter the 20th century?

The job in question is one of those which has very little relationship with the more normal jobs listed in the newspaper want ads. I credit the founding father for having the forsight to set up qualifications which would keep the office as "purely American" as it has been. Because of the power entrusted in this office, one third of all government, it being accessible to any foreign interests could be disastrous for the American people. Either in the short or long term.
Depending upon the character of the individual elected, measures could be put into place which could either be rapid in their effects or could be set as a part of some long term strategy, and not realized until it could not be changed.

a reply to: tinymind

I sort of agree with you on the 'natural born' bit, but it makes me wonder why no indigenous person has EVER been looked at as a potential president. You can't get any more American than that.



Anyways, it looks like you're stuck with trusTED, because it seems not even Alberta wants him back all that much.

That’s not to say he doesn’t have any hometown fans. But outside of the fringe religious right, support is tepid.

“To be honest, I kind of like Ted Cruz,” says Cochrane town councillor Morgan Nagel. “He’s a more moderate alternative to Donald Trump.”

“President Cruz” would not be a huge point of pride for Nagel. But, he says, “maybe if we get a Calgarian in there, that Keystone pipeline will finally get through.” (President Obama vetoed the Keystone plan a year ago, but many Canadians still hold on to the possibility that it can be realized.)

www.theguardian.com...

originally posted by: yeahright
a reply to: AndyMayhew

Yeah this pesky little document called the Constitution. Amending it is kind of a big deal.

Aye, never once been amended in over 200 years and why should it be now?

a reply to: tinymind


But you elect the person. So if he happens to be a Russian who has never set foot in the USA, you can choose not to vote for him.

But if you have 5 candidates, 4 of whom are rich stupid bigots who were born in the USA, never worked a day in their lives, and all in thrall to big business, and the 5th an Armenian whose parents brought him to the USA when he was 18 months old, and who became an intelligent and consciencious citizen, running his own small business to great success. helping charities, and generally a really good, competent guy, who would you want to vote for? Seriously?

I should say that I beleive VERY strongly in the principle of "Best Man for the Job".

If you werent born in my country, so what? Why turn away a diamond in favour or cracked glass just because the diamond wasnt born here?

a reply to: AndyMayhew

I guess it comes back to the qualifications set down in the Constitution.
They have served us for this long, why would you want to change, just for the sack of change itself?
I also believe in an expression which has been accredited to Winston Churchill.

"People usually get the government they deserve."

If we go with the Supreme Court, they equate natural born citizen to birthright citizen. Therefore, as long as one of Cruz's parents is a US citizen then he is a natural born citizen.