The Amish Are Not What They Seem: A Business of Brutal Cruelty

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

These are closed communities, so it is difficult to tell what goes on. Having said that, the Amish here don't sell dogs. I've found their horses to be well fed, well trained, confident, consistent, sensible and still able to think their way through new and scary situations, which generally isn't what you get from an abused horse.

In terms of how the horses are treated, locally at least, it is a different story in my experience. How they treat their women... Is another matter, but it's easier to get outraged over a puppy for most people I guess.

originally posted by: redhorse
a reply to: SkepticOverlord

These are closed communities, so it is difficult to tell what goes on. Having said that, the Amish here don't sell dogs. I've found their horses to be well fed, well trained, confident, consistent, sensible and still able to think their way through new and scary situations, which generally isn't what you get from an abused horse.

You're confusing an abused animal with an animal that has been systematically raised as a tool from childbirth in the same away as an MKUltra victim / mass shooter / etc would be in the human-slave sphere. They seem normal because they have been trained to be normal, they seem healthy because its in the interests of their owner to be so. That doesn't mean they also haven't been treated horrifically and had their rights utterly violated.

The Amish are a cult and from living in an Amish region all my life they are also hypocritical as hell. They should not be allowed to continue any more than any other child and animal abusing cult whose members are lied to and brainwashed from birth.

originally posted by: elliotmtl
The Amish are a cult and from living in an Amish region all my life they are also hypocritical as hell.

Growing up in Western New York, I've come to realize there are generally two sects of the Amish (discounting Mennonites), old order and new order. The old order tend to be more agricultural, and not engaging in large-scale money makers like puppy mills. It's the new order Amish that are generally engaging in the puppy mills and other industries like lumber mills and such.

originally posted by: elliotmtl

originally posted by: redhorse
a reply to: SkepticOverlord

These are closed communities, so it is difficult to tell what goes on. Having said that, the Amish here don't sell dogs. I've found their horses to be well fed, well trained, confident, consistent, sensible and still able to think their way through new and scary situations, which generally isn't what you get from an abused horse.

You're confusing an abused animal with an animal that has been systematically raised as a tool from childbirth in the same away as an MKUltra victim / mass shooter / etc would be in the human-slave sphere. They seem normal because they have been trained to be normal, they seem healthy because its in the interests of their owner to be so. That doesn't mean they also haven't been treated horrifically and had their rights utterly violated.

The Amish are a cult and from living in an Amish region all my life they are also hypocritical as hell. They should not be allowed to continue any more than any other child and animal abusing cult whose members are lied to and brainwashed from birth.

How many horses have you trained? I'm not confusing a blessed thing. Horses aren't people. They are flight animals with an ingrained, explosive response that is particularly violent if they are unsure and abused. An abused horse is an unpredictable, frightened horse. Even a horse who has had their "spirit broken", and stands there with their head half down, barely looking at anything will blow up if they make a mistake because they think that you are going to beat them. I have not found any of that to the be the case with the Amish horses (again, the caveat is locally). You can't "train them to be normal", with abuse. That is an absurd assertion, generally made by those who don't know one end of a horse from the other.

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

That's exactly what I've seen as well. Make no mistake either, these new order Amish are very clever and shrewd business men. They know how to make a dollar, and keep it

a reply to: Helious
because of two things political correctness and bigotry why both of these? well the pc crowd don't want to say anything about the amish because they feel that all this must be part of their religion and since they don't understand it they don't want to appear as bigots against the simple amish folk so they say nothing . the other bigotry some people in those communities don't like the amish they consider them to be backward people and they will not have any dealings wityh them.

originally posted by: redhorse
I have not found any of that to the be the case with the Amish horses (again, the caveat is locally).

A few years back, there was a community of new order Amish in New York, near the Pennsylvania border that were exposed by a Rochester, NY TV station for extreme abuse of their horses -- with footage of horses dropping dead in the field, and some unable to walk from being driven on the paved roads too much. It's not uncommon.

Just like any group, some will be better than others... or a few shockingly worse than one can imagine. A simple Google search on Amish horse abuse opens up a can of disgusting worms, similar to the puppy mills. It's sad.

a reply to: jonnywhite

Sir, I agree 100% with your insight, and believe it to be very accurate.

In regards to the animals, how far legally can the American public go in passing legislation limiting or outright banning he retail existence of puppy stores. For example, can this "industry" be limited in law specifically to localized breeders who do not utilize a mass production concept for pets, much the way our livestock industry does for food??

Bovine, swine, and poultry have to endure the conditions they do in an effort to deliver value to a public who will consume them as food o a daily basis. This is what it takes for me to be able to get my 2 for $2 at mcdonalds, or that ice $15 family pack with 2 big macs, three fries, 20 pc nuggets and 3 drinks. I can live with that honestly. It is of no concern to me how livestock is factory farmed for food as long as they end up affordable because we need to eat to live.

However, pet dogs are not bred to be consumed. The end result is hopefully placement in a loving family to be adored and treated with dignity for years and years as a companion and member of the family who can also function i some breeds as guardians to their well being and property as well. This to me negates the need for a mass production concept in regards to the animals in this purpose, and therefore should not justify such an industry. Therefore, the industry could, and should be eliminated in favor of localized and/or regional breeders by law, with scrutiny and heavy regulation to any who wish to apply.

This would completely transform not only the distribution of the animals, but very well the acquisition. Families and individuals would have less incentive to treat their animals as a disposable "thing" that is simply tossed out to the streets when the kids move out, or they get bored because little fatty is now more interested in playing video games instead of caring for the living being they begged and begged for Christmas or bday to have a couple years prior. Parents, being the pushovers they are just get one to shut the kid up. Noone ends up taking care of it a couple years later and they figure whatever lets just get rid of it.

So really, how can we enact laws that will eliminate this feedback loop of abusive breeding/neglectful care and disposable mindset without being called enemies of capitalism and accusations of being communist/socialist??

This highlights a larger problem namely certain religions form communities.
They are close-knit, secretive and do not allow outsiders in.
This allows the many extremes found in religion to run rampant without interference from the law.
Precisely the same reason Islam is danger to free societies.

I had always thought the Amish pragmatic but not to the point of treating animals so cruelly.
That's my personal sore spot and I have had more than 1 talk with owners who were kicking or choking their dogs.

a reply to: AmericanRealist

I do not think there needs to be additional laws for this situation, only more stringent enforcement of the ones on the books.

If you have hundreds of violations no new law is going to dissuade you from animal abuse. They just need to be shut down when they are so egregiously in violation of the law.

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

Thank you for the OP. Deeply saddened to see it has reached such a degree, especially with the puppy mills, breaks my heart. I do business with the aforementioned community. ALOT of business, like any group, you cannot lump them all in with the groups that are doing unspeakable actions.

We live in a very slippery world any more. Populations are huge, cultural rifts are blatant, while cultures are by force or by otherwise bleeding across ancient lines of separation. Hard to say what the answer is. Yes, there are some unscrupulous people out there with the Amish moniker. I don't see them murdering folks, or setting off car bombs etc...but it is indeed awful to hear of the puppy mills, its just cruel.

Small local communities, loosely knitting states and nations is the only real answer, but nobody wants to hear what they cant see.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

The industry itself is a feedback loop that is creating the demand. The reason animal shelters are overcrowded is because these mass production facilities exist to cater to families with a disposable mindset. It is just easy to replace a stubborn animal then to do the correct thing and take training and temperament seriously because they are readily available in a store a few miles apart from each other.

if the availability is reduced and made more difficult, less people would be treating the animals like a 'thing' to be tossed away when one grows tired and weary. Only serious humans would be seeking a companion, and they would be required to visit a breeder that takes the care and dignity of the animal much more seriously than just line items on a spread sheet.

Myself, if I was going to buy a puppy, putting alot of money into the animal, there are a few things that I am going to want to see:

1) The Sire.
2) The bitch.
3) The condition on how the animals are kept, and cared for. One can tell by the condition how such is cared for.

I will not purchase an animal from a pet store, for 2 reasons: 1) You have no clue on the parents of said puppy. 2) Pet stores have been known to make very big mistakes when it comes to the puppies they sell, along with the potential of disease there.

Terrible, just terrible and heartbreaking. How anyone can treat animals such as this in incomprehensible. Domesticated animals are dependent on us to treat them with love, respect and compassion. If someone is unable to do this, why are they given permits to open these puppy farms, wrong on so many levels.

Going to go home and love on my precious kitties extra hard tonight, and the neighbors cat too. They don't take care of him how they should so my husband and I have been stepping in to care for the little guy. Seriously makes my blood boil!

originally posted by: AmericanRealist
The industry itself is a feedback loop that is creating the demand. The reason animal shelters are overcrowded is because these mass production facilities exist to cater to families with a disposable mindset.

I can only speak from personal experience but the dogs that my wife and I adopted/foster come from the south, we have none that originated from Amish puppy mills (or even in the area).

Cayenne was found tied to a tree in South Carolina and was being fostered here in New Jersey when we adopted her:



And Nola came from a high-kill shelter in Alabama: