Relating the belief in God to the belief in Santa.

a reply to: thekaboose

My thread is about belief in God, not about the Bible.

Comparing the Bible to a children's book would be one thing.

Comparing the belief thereof to worshipping a children's book.. Is not a good comparison.

So, while I never mentioned the Bible, I wonder why people who debate creationism bring up the time line? Why would time to a God be the exact same as we count today? There's religions that believe he is in a heaven which is thousands or millions of times bigger than an earth... Wouldn't such a system take a long time to rotate on its axis?

a reply to: Murgatroid

I never said anything about Jesus. I'm talking about the belief in God.

Not the books that accompany these beliefs.

Not any religion.

Not any belief in any one religion.

Belief in God(s) has been around for thousands of years, possibly more. Far longer than records of Jesus at least.

a reply to: deadlyhope

The second we start inhibiting/halting belief in anything, then we're on the road to dictating what we should believe in.

Be free to believe what you want.

I'm a non-believer, but I got your back.

a reply to: DBCowboy

I definitely advocate freedom of speech, freedom of thought, etc.

People from all groups seem to desire that only their thoughts be respected, or that others are somehow less important or less worthy, this definitely applies to religious people, and definitely applies to some in the scientific community - have you seen how some approach others who don't believe in evolution or global warming? I've seen more than heated debates, I've seen malicious intent - not so much on these forums, but still.

a reply to: deadlyhope

The thing is, everyone thinks they are right.

And that's alright to think that, unless you want to shut everyone else down.

It's all about respect. I don't have to believe your beliefs in order to respect your right to believe them.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: Klassified

Santa thread? There's no one thread I'm pointing out, it's many threads, over a long period of time. Most don't say "here's an analogy", they more say "this thread is stupid because your belief in God is as silly as belief in Santa Claus"

It's typically used as an attack on a person's belief, a way to deny their opinions simply because their version of morality, or their ideas or political stances make others uncomfortable.

I think one of the things that annoys me the most is, those who are offended by the comparison in your OP, have no problem laughing, ridiculing, and comparing other peoples beliefs with caricatures and ridiculous analogies, that are different from their own belief. If one chooses to believe in their version of god, don't be a hypocrite. If you don't like people criticizing your personal god, don't criticize theirs. If you wouldn't want Muslim's, Jews, Wiccans, Christian's, Buddhist's, Satanist's knocking on your door, stopping you on the street, putting flyers on your car. Then don't do it to others. I don't care what your holy book, or the minister tells you. Don't proselytize, criticize, force your theology onto others, if you don't want it done to you. Your faith is your faith. It's personal to you. It doesn't belong in my life, or in my government.

Note: You and Your are spoken in general terms. Not aimed at the OP, or any individual.

a reply to: Murgatroid

The version of Santa you are thinking of is actually a composite, some from legitimate Christian lore and others from pagan traditions. The basic concept of a magical being giving out gifts at Christmas time was from Italian Christians and it was originally an old witch called Befana. There are many origin stories about her but one of the more prevalent is that, after she gave the three wise men directions to find the baby, she soon regretted not going with them. She left on her broom stick to look for them but never found them and, every year after, she flies around and gives out gifts in hopes of luring Jesus out so she can see him with her own eyes (she never realized he grew up, apparently).

The transformation from the old witch Befana to Santa was, indeed, taken from pagans. The eight reindeer represent the eight Sabbats, the north pole relates to where the Holly King resides during the solstice, etc.

The irony here is that the only true Christian contribution to traditional Christmas lore was in the form of a witch.


She even transformed into smoke to enter houses through the chimney!

a reply to: deadlyhope

Fair or not here goes. Depictions of both God and Santa consistently appear to be old white men with beards. As well as God's Sonny boy, also depicted as a white man with a beard. Hmmmmm

Santa- knows when you are sleeping, awake, bad or good (semi omnipotent) God- omnipotent. Check!

Punishment for bad behaviour
Santa- coal in the stocking
God- damnation and burning in hell
Check!

Jesus- (God) disciples
Santa- elves
(Bit of a stretch on this one)

Existence
Santa- unproven
God- unproven
Check!

Both demand obedience under threat of loss
Santa- better watch out, better not cry, better not pout.
God- damnation of everlasting soul, heavens gates locked, burning in hell.
Check!

We could be here awhile, these comparisons are unrefutable because both parties are imaginary and are characters in a story of fiction.
Santa- a story believed by the children of liars, re-enforced by corporations who sell the products and the children who receive them.
God- a story believed by gullible, told by liars and re-enforced by priests who sell them the product.

a reply to: Klassified

Oh I'm definitely against people using religion to prop themselves up onto a high horse, it's extremely hypocritical since most teachings of any God, or Jesus, teach of tolerance, compassion, charity, love, acceptance and the like. I've mentioned in other posts and topics that your beliefs do not make you better than someone else, nor worse - unless your beliefs call you to take actions in which create a world that's worse because of said ideology.

Some scientists and atheists feel elite and think others smaller than them

Some religious people think others smaller than them in a holy way, like only their morals and the way they choose to interpret and follow those morals is the only way to be.

I am against both mindsets.

a reply to: ThoughtIsMadness

You're talking about Christianity and those who choose to follow an organized religion.

My post is about neither.

There's hundreds of God's, I realize people hear "Christian" when the word "God" is used, but that is not what I mean. I'm talking about the general belief held by I belive 85 percent of the world - some type of God.

Also, I'm talking about the comparison of belief, not any direct or indirect comparisons made between Santa and certain interpretations of some religions. For instance, Egyptians had their own gods thousands of years ago - direct comparison in this instance is tougher, but direct isn't even what I mean.

I mean implying that believing in a God, any God, is equivalent to believing in Santa Claus is incorrect in a lot of ways. I'm sure an anthropologist would have a much more detailed analysis of the matter than myself, though.

a reply to: deadlyhope

...It's typically used as an attack on a person's belief...

It's more often (though not always) a metaphor for disbelief

Do you believe in Santa? No. You understand why you don't very well. Now you understand why others can't believe in a God

Most atheists/agnostics understand your belief, your faith even - and they can even respect all of it so long as you don't make any unreasonable demands

A person can't believe what they can't believe. Faith is a simple concept to understand - but it doesn't transfer just because you understand it

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

It's a form of faith to say something does not exist. You are believing your senses, and experiences on one world in the whole universe can give you the answer to something so big.

It's why some of the greatest minds in history including Einstein say something more like "there's no way to know" rather than taking a side.

I don't really understand why others specifically take a position against believing in God, the most logical position would be to assert that according to your own experiences and observable data, you cannot come to the conclusion that God exists, but I don't always see people take that position, some go as far as to attack the belief, which is not logical in nature as there's no way to prove nor disprove God.

I realize sometimes the attack has to do with interactions of people of faith including ones life being interfered with due to someone's religious ideologies but still, the belief cannot logically be debated to find any answer thus far - I don't think it will ever have a negative result, maybe a positive but I'm not sure about that either.

a reply to: ThoughtIsMadness

That was rather insipid.

You do realize that Santa isn't the same everywhere in the world? In the Netherlands they think he's the ex-bishop of Turkey and lives in Spain. And if you're bad, he and his six to eight black men come and beat you with a switch and stuff you in a sack and kidnap you to Spain. I don't see the similarity with God.

So, who's to say that you yourself aren't imaginary, then? There's more proof of God and Jesus than there is of you and your beliefs. They found Noah's Ark. Long time ago--there's pics and everything. And wouldn't you know it it's the exact same thing the Bible describes! Hmmmm I wonder how that could be?

The Bible has never been wrong. And the New and Old testament are separated by a thousand years. History backs up the Bible. The Bible isn't a story--it's history. You can't find Narnia--but we did find Noah's Ark (oh, and it was on top of a mountain). That would be literally impossible if the Bible wasn't true. The ark wouldn't exist if it was a fairy tale. So actually, there's plenty of proof that God exists--it's just funny that so many people make themselves blind to it. And by funny I mean heartbreakingly sad.

Remember a few years ago when nobody accepted the idea of a great flood having covered the earth--oh but now that's accepted fact because we have found overwhelming proof of it having happened. Not to mention the recent revelation that the fossil dating method is total b.s. (think--water erodes things. And also...since when did God just make new rocks or whatever? God can make a ten million year old boulder if He wants. The carbon-dating method is an utter sham~ And yet I bet you believed it--you had faith in it. And it turned out to be horse poopy).

So, what proof has there ever been of Santa and his elves--none! So no, you can't compare apples and oranges. You can try, but when you cherry pick you compromise the legitimacy of your argument. Not to mention, your Santa argument ignores Jesus. Christians don't have to be good to get to heaven, okay? I'm a jerk. I'm not a nice person all of the time and I do bad things more than I would like to admit--but guess what? I'm going to heaven. Thanks to Jesus. So no, bad behavior isn't punished because Jesus paid that price with his blood. Before Jesus, nobody got to heaven. Know why? People suck at doing what God says. But now, ain't it nice that that's no longer what's going on? I think so. It's literally the easiest thing in the world to believe--and it's the nicest, too. You have to DO NOTHING to be saved besides believe that Jesus died for you. That's not much to ask. So yes, I will press that into your face in the hopes that you remember it someday so that I can meet you in heaven and not mourn your loss. I'm selfish like that. I want you to live. And! Even if I happen to be wrong--guess what you lose nothing! You have all to gain and nothing to lose by believing that Jesus died for you.

But go ahead and don't! Free will FTW, after all! I did my job and your blood is not going to be on my hands.

That's why Christians speak out and annoy you people--they are trying to help you. What are you doing by saying that God doesn't exist and comparing God to Santa? What? Anything altruistic? Nope. You're just being childish.

a reply to: deadlyhope

I don't really understand why others specifically take a position against believing in God

Then you're not listening. People here are actually trying to tell you. They are being sincere

It's not a position against anything - it's just a lack of belief

Most atheists will admit that nobody can know. That's not a point for the believers. If you claim it is then you don't understand the conversation we're all having

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Then that's fine. I don't really care if you lack belief, that doesn't hurt me. Nobody can know isn't a bad point to make, dude. I can understand where you're coming from and I'm sure other Christians can, too. I'm listening, but the whole Santa comparison is a position and it's a childish one. It is utterly selfish. Whereas we are trying to help you, you're just trying to make fun of us. Ain't that nice?

If you're going to say anything then, why not just say that nobody can know whether God is real or not and leave it at that. While I might disagree, I can accept your view because you do not believe in God like I do. That's totally chill.

It is the taking it a step further and deliberately trying to undermine God by comparing Him with some fat nancy who doesn't give presents to poor people. Besides being totally stupid, that's also a really rude thing to do.

How would you like it if I compared your lack of belief to something silly? Like Icarus flying too close to the Sun because he didn't listen. Oh wait, that actually is a valid comparison. I actually can't think of one. But maybe that's just because I don't find your lack of belief silly--I find it sad. That's the difference. You think our belief is silly. Stop that and watch how we can all get along just fine.

a reply to: rukia


This is a bit surly - don't you think? And childish?

I'm listening, but the whole Santa comparison is a position and it's a childish one. It is utterly selfish. Whereas we are trying to help you, you're just trying to make fun of us. Ain't that nice?

The Santa comparison is a metaphor. You see it as an insult. So - you're not listening

It is utterly selfish.

How is it selfish if it's how I see things? Am I not allowed to view this life differently from you?

Whereas we are trying to help you, you're just trying to make fun of us.

How are you trying to help us (atheists/agnostics - I suppose...)?

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I already said: " You have to DO NOTHING to be saved besides believe that Jesus died for you. That's not much to ask. So yes, I will press that into your face in the hopes that you remember it someday so that I can meet you in heaven and not mourn your loss. I'm selfish like that. I want you to live. And! Even if I happen to be wrong--guess what you lose nothing! You have all to gain and nothing to lose by believing that Jesus died for you. "

That's how.

Don't you understand my perspective?

And no, I am selfish too--but I do not call you silly or undermine you. Because I feel sad for you. I don't think you're silly. You think I'm silly. though. Santa isn't a metaphor for God at all, and if you think that that is a good metaphor then I am really sad for you because you must not understand what a metaphor is. Or you must not understand God. pick one. But either way, it's stupid. Why make the comparison at all? For what point? To make yourself feel good? Cool, how does that help me?

You have everything to lose if you don't believe, the way I see it. Therefore I want to help you. You are free to take it or leave it. But as someone who loves God, it's my job to at least tell you so that your blood doesn't end up on my hands. You're not doing anything for a higher purpose, so why do it at all?

If what you're doing isn't to help people, then you should really stop. Because you're wasting your time.

a reply to: rukia

I already said: " You have to DO NOTHING to be saved besides believe that Jesus died for you. That's not much to ask. So yes, I will press that into your face in the hopes that you remember it someday so that I can meet you in heaven and not mourn your loss. I'm selfish like that.

Lovely

And no, I am selfish too--but I do not call you silly or undermine you.

You already have - several times, plus this:

Because I feel sad for you. I don't think you're silly. You think I'm silly. though. Santa isn't a metaphor for God at all, and if you think that that is a good metaphor then I am really sad for you because you must not understand what a metaphor is. Or you must not understand God. pick one. But either way, it's stupid. Why make the comparison at all? For what point? To make yourself feel good? Cool, how does that help me?

It's not a metaphor for God - it's a metaphor for why some people don't believe. You doubt my sincerity - and you cannot adequately understand a metaphor or what a metaphor is. So you attack

You have everything to lose if you don't believe, the way I see it.

You really don't understand this if you think that I can just believe something as part of a crapshoot

You're not doing anything for a higher purpose, so why do it at all?
If what you're doing isn't to help people, then you should really stop. Because you're wasting your time.

And there it is...the big gaping hole in your theory of love


Now is that a symbol - or a metaphor? :-)

Temper, temper rukia...

a reply to: deadlyhope

Its just a dismissive tactic used by minds that are more interested in converting others, and being "right," than moving forward as a species.

Intelligence isn't necessarily indicated by what one believes (or doesn't believe) in this realm of things, but many see disagreement as a sign of stupidity.

The issue, here and in other social interactions, is that an individuals approach tends to be predicated on ideological similarities rather than behavioral similarities.

There are absolutely brilliant people who are believers and absolutely brilliant people who are non-believers. It'd be more socially productive to align along these lines, but even then, it might get drowned out by the sheer volume of the basic conflict that so many are programmed to participate. Most are hard coded to ally themselves ideologically, even at the expense of evolution. Then, the behavioral issues take a backseat, or are used to attack the other "side" with perceived immunity. This cognitive dissonance stems, in part, from the erroneous idea that behavior is predicated by ideology. Meaning, if the opposition acts in a certain way, my "side" is incapable of the same behavior. At most, it will be written off as tit-for-tat. Highly entertaining to watch though!

We can observe the same behavior in nearly every social interaction, though it will manifest differently depending on context. It makes for a great alternative to TV, as nearly everyone participates yet will only point it out to one-up the opposition.

originally posted by: rukia


You do realize that Santa isn't the same everywhere in the world?

God- not the same everywhere in the world.
Santa- also not the same everywhere in the world.

Thanks I missed that one.