Of Lions, Tassels, and the Long-Haired Sorcerer Kings

I have always been interested in Atlantis. And I was supremely excited when, during philosophy in college, I learned that Socrates had supposedly witnessed its fall—and that it had been a magical battle and the citizens of Atlantis had destroyed themselves. So, of course I was surprised when, mainly out of boredom, but also due to curiosity and a desire to dig into leads on my family history, I learned that there were purported survivors of Atlantis—being the natives of the Basque region of Spain and Southern France. Basque cultural history, as I have touched upon briefly in other threads (because I am largely ignorant of it and seeking to learn more), is deeply rooted in the supernatural. That’s part of what makes the culture unique in the sense that the supernatural was taken literally versus simply as myth--the supernatural is history to them. And apparently, the Merovingian bloodline originated in Basque—they are likely descendants of the 12 tribes of Judah that scattered across the globe. And they were usurped by the Carolingians during the War of the Roses.

My knowledge of all of this is limited, as you can see.
So now that I’ve gotten you up to speed on what I know, let’s begin:

I decided to start by researching to see if there were any links between the Merovingian bloodline and special abilities. My FIRST SOURCE yielded this:

"They were distinguished… by the fashion of allowing their hair (and sometimes beards as well) to grow long, and they became known as ‘the long haired kings’".

I think that this supports other information that I gathered. And what was really neat was that this quote both supports and expands upon the ideas mentioned in the first source. According to Michael Tsarion,

“The kings of the Merovingian dynasty wore their hair long in [order] to emulate a lion's mane, and were believed to possess birth marks between their shoulder blades in the shape of a red cross…the fish [was a commonly-used Merovingian symbol], that Christians used to signify Jesus. The Latin word for fish is luce, that connotes Lucifer, that is, Aton. King Dagobert of the Merovingian dynasty may have been named after Dagon, an ancient pagan god of the sea”.

—Okay, now here’s where I think it really starts to get interesting!

Also found on the first source (link above):

"Also known as "the Sorcerer Kings", the Merovingian monarchs are said to have possessed supernatural powers, including the abilities to cure illness simply by touching the afflicted and to tame wild animals".

--My first thought: Hm. That sounds like the kinds of stuff that happened in the Bible. Okay, so God helps these Kings. But for some reason they’re into what sounds like demonic things.

To check out this hunch, I went to my SECOND SOURCE to see what else I could find. And sure enough—I get a reference to the Temple of Solomon and Asmodeus, who apparently was in charge of building it or something (according to this Sauniere guy, at least) There’s a lot of information here, and it’s all pretty interesting and much of it has already been discussed here on ATS, I believe, but this bit in particular caught my attention:

"Evidently, during his last confession Sauniere revealed something that caused the attending priest to refuse him absolution and communion, once again there is no ready explanation for this. Sauniere’s funeral was also decidedly odd, following his death on January 22nd; his body was dressed in a tasseled robe and placed in chair on the terrace outside the Tour Magdala. A number of unidentified mourners filed past, each one removing a tassel, presumably as a token of remembrance. It is curious to note that the Merovingian kings who also feature strongly in this mystery, also wore tasseled robes, the tassels were held to be imbued with magical properties as indeed were the monarchs themselves, the tassels were distributed to those deemed deserving or worthy".

Now, what do you make of that, then???

I want to know.

10 years ago, if you had told me that I would be writing about this seriously, I would have called you crazy. But honestly, I believe that these Sorcerer Kings existed. And I want to know more about them. So please, ATS, what do you know? Do you think that there's a possibility that this is historical fact and not historical fiction?

AND, IF SO (*channeling my inner Giorgio Tsoukalos lol--try to imagine my hair standing up wildly as I say this*), THEN ARE THESE SORCERER KINGS STILL AROUND TODAY? Where did they go? What did they leave behind? Blah blah blah aliens.

a reply to: rukia

What they left behind is something we all wish to have, a legacy.

That being said, it makes sense (to me) that the tassels would be a direct extension of their power (imagine electricity flowing through a wire) thus I guess it would be useful to carry around.

As for the healing and taming wild animals..honestly that doesn't impress me one bit.

Not to say that they did or didn't 100 percent do it, but energy healing for instance is a big thing (reiki) and certain people today have a way with animals.

The part of your story which interests me the most is your doubt in their faith to God (of course that's my favourite part).

Wether or not you believe in God, there are more examples throughout history of people receiving abilities from magic rather than God.

I think if you explore more into what types of magic exist, and I don't mean start doing rituals, you will find more answers to what you are looking for.

a reply to: threeeyesopen

Yes! Please tell me more. I don't doubt their faith in God--but I am ignorant of their practices. I do know that God said that practicing magic (basically) was bad and dangerous and not to mess with it. But...I have to ask: What do you mean, different kinds of magic? If I think that this magic comes from demons--like how supposedly Solomon (but was it THE King Solomon? I always wonder because I wasn't aware of him dabbling in demon things until I came to ATS actually) used them to build stuff and do other things--then doesn't that answer the question? I am of the belief that yes, you can get power from plenty of places, but if it isn't from God, there's a price. I'm not going to judge whether that's right or wrong because that's up to you to decide.

Magic is just basically influencing the energy, right? So what do you mean by different kinds? I don't know much about what people say about magic. I know a lot about energy/aether, though--or, well, what you can know from being able to see it (which, it might surprise you, ain't much--lol 'a lot' my grass). I don't really do anything--or know how to for that matter. Basically, I'm a major noob.

Thank you for responding. You seem like you know what you're talking about

Was magic more involved in history than I'm thinking?

a reply to: rukia

Trying to make Atlantis a historical fact is like trying to make Tolkien's Middle Earth a historical fact. No matter how many or how hard people try it will never be historical fact.

PLATO made it up. He made up Atlantis as an allegorical tale in the spirit and fashion of Greek literature in his own time;

en.wikipedia.org...

it represents the antagonist naval power that besieges "Ancient Athens", the pseudo-historic embodiment of Plato's ideal state (see The Republic). In the story, Athens was able to repel the Atlantean attack, unlike any other nation of the (western) known world,[1] supposedly giving testament to the superiority of Plato's concept of a state.[2][3] At the end of the story, Atlantis eventually falls out of favor with the gods and famously submerges into the Atlantic Ocean.

Might your time be better spent reading the Greek classics and Philosophers? They are real and so is their knowledge, on which our own civilization has been fashioned.

It was PLATO who practically invented Atlantis. Read Plato and you will see it and know it. Von Daniken and others of his ilk will just have you barking at the moon and thinking Gandolf was a real historical figure.

Picture this: In a thousand years time a philosopher uses an allegory (extended metaphor) to make a point, like Plato and Dante (The Divine Comedy in Dante's case). Two thousand years after that unscrupulous and wacky writers misrepresent the original allegory as fact, then you have a pretender to the throne of history and reality and those who are not educated to understand, who have no knowledge of the original source, that the original was an invented allegory used with poetic license, will indeed be like a blind person led by a blind person. That is when reality breaks down and that is why I get flaming angry at intellectual dishonesty.

However, if it suits you to believe in fiction as fact that is fine, but please do not expect me to.

Sorry to be so hard, but I am trying to tell you something here. I expect you will thrash against it and hate me for it because it is challenging your assumptions, but I care enough about you being deceived to attempt to rectify that even if you hate me for doing it.

On the other hand, 19th-century amateur scholars misinterpreted Plato's account as historical tradition, most notably in Donnelly's Atlantis: The Antediluvian World. Plato's vague indications of the time of the events—more than 9,000 years before his day[5]—and the alleged location of Atlantis—"beyond the Pillars of Hercules"—has led to much pseudoscientific speculation.[6] As a consequence, Atlantis has become a byword for any and all supposed advanced prehistoric lost civilizations and continues to inspire contemporary fiction, from comic books to films.

a reply to: Revolution9

I'm saying, let's pretend it's true. Plato wrote down what Socrates said. Socrates had no written works--Greeks did oral culture. And Socrates isn't the only one to document its existence. It's not that far-fetched at all. He used allegory, but he wrote of Atlantis with surprising description.

But yes, for the sake of the discussion, let's just take that hypothetical and run with it. We are talking about the long-haired kings--which are certainly not a fairy tale. My introduction was just me telling you all that I think that I know that relates to the topic of the thread. So you could understand where I'm coming from because I figured that that would help people in coming up with responses. And I want to be corrected--so thank you. But I already know. I just want to consider the possibilities on this, because it's intriguing to do so and I can't help but see a connection.

I mean, what if?

Wouldn't it be wild?

The fact that these Sorcerer King dudes existed blows my mind all by itself. That sounds like something out of a Lev Grossman book or something.

Oh, and I don't like that Icke guy or whatever. I read what he said about Atlantis, and it was interesting, but I think he takes the b.s. a bit too far. There's some interesting things in what he writes sometimes, though. But I'm not very familiar with him because I suspect he's a crackpot.

And I've read the classics...and I am very familiar with Greek and Roman history and how that spawned the Renaissance--art history is always great to know...but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. I'm only talking hypothetical. And asking to know more. I'm not saying any of this as fact--as you would have seen if you'd read the OP.

a reply to: rukia

I like this post much better.

I am no good at pretending. I seem to have an utter mental block. I am very boring and factual. I make myself yawn. I would seek company to attempt to stop myself yawning, but I make other people yawn just like me and they don't like yawning and being bored by my factual moroseness; hence I am stuck with myself... yawning!

What a terrible vicious circle I am caught up in don't ya think!

You know the Catholic Church did the same with Dante's "Divine Comedy". Suddenly, as if by magic, Purgatorio appeared, lol, even though there is no mention of this fictional place in ANY Hebrew or Christian theology. It was a good money earner though for the Vatican;

INDULGENCE:

en.wikipedia.org...

In the teaching of the Catholic Church, an indulgence is "a way to reduce the amount of punishment one has to undergo for sins"[1] which may reduce either or both of the penance required after a sin has been forgiven, or after death, the time to be spent in Purgatory.

By the late Middle Ages, the abuse of indulgences, mainly through commercialization, had become a serious problem which the Church recognized but was unable to restrain effectively. Indulgences were from the beginning of the Protestant Reformation a target of attacks by Martin Luther and all other Protestant theologians.

Yes, it all got so corrupted that people thought they could literally BUY their way out of the time they would have to spend in purgatory for their sins.

The concept of purgatory of course has a very long history of slowly developing into this monstrosity, but Dante was able to use it to full effect in his allegory, which gave the Catholic Church a heavy weight of credibility to have such noble works upon which to deceive the unlearned.

Similarly, Atlantis has evolved and has been a wonderful earner for certain unscrupulous writers of fancy fiction posing as history.

I'm horrible. I am a nasty iconoclast. I'll not make you yawn any more.

originally posted by: rukia
a reply to: Revolution9

I'm saying, let's pretend it's true. Plato wrote down what Socrates said. Socrates had no written works--Greeks did oral culture. And Socrates isn't the only one to document its existence. It's not that far-fetched at all. He used allegory, but he wrote of Atlantis with surprising description.

You don't have the story right. In Plato's story Socrates is just present and is the one who asks about old stories of Athens. Critias is the one who tells the story of Atlantis which purportedly came down from Solon who heard it from the Egyptians. Solon had been long dead by the time of Plato's story. And there really isn't anyone else in antiquity that "documents" Atlantis. Plato's is the only account.

a reply to: Revolution9

You don't make me yawn!

I like what you have to say.

I think it's interesting.

originally posted by: DelMarvel

originally posted by: rukia
a reply to: Revolution9

I'm saying, let's pretend it's true. Plato wrote down what Socrates said. Socrates had no written works--Greeks did oral culture. And Socrates isn't the only one to document its existence. It's not that far-fetched at all. He used allegory, but he wrote of Atlantis with surprising description.

You don't have the story right. In Plato's story Socrates is just present and is the one who asks about old stories of Athens. Critias is the one who tells the story of Atlantis which purportedly came down from Solon who heard it from the Egyptians. Solon had been long dead by the time of Plato's story. And there really isn't anyone else in antiquity that "documents" Atlantis. Plato's is the only account.

I DO have the story right. It is a literary conversation. It is not REAL. It is using characters like a story. Yes, Socrates is real, but it is a manufactured conversation.

Dante does EXACTLY the same with the Roman poet Virgil, who was alive over a thousand years before he. Virgil is a real person and so is Dante. Them both talking in the Inferno and Purgatorio is made up, TOTALLY, to make a point, as a work of literature and philosophy. Do you not understand this? The real conversation never happened. It was made up in Dante's mind, just like the one between Plato and Socrates. It was a classic literary tool to do this. Dante learned it from the ancient Greek literary tradition.

Read some proper books people. Read Plato and Dante instead of Von Daniken and David Icke. One will educate you and the other will make you a moron.

I have studied Literature at University. I really have read a lot of books, but not the silly deceiving kind.

a reply to: rukia

Now, what do you make of that, then???

I do believe that history is so convoluted and interpreted and constantly reinterpreted that if anyone actually knew the truth or was there and witnessed it. They would likely stare at us and our history books and all our knowledge completely dumbfounded if they ever heard of it.

As for your theory and fancy on this subject. I think it would make a good plot in the next Harry Potter novel. Not making fun of it, or you, just saying. All of history is a laughing matter, this being no different a case. In a world were billions cant grasp what is going on next door to them or in the next country over even with today's technology.

What change would more primitive peoples have had of actually putting down any actual factual things in there writings? Slim chances indeed.

And just so you know, Socrates lived and died long after the myth and stories of Atlantis took hold, he is merely recounting something he heard, from somebody who heard it from somebody, who heard it once, and who once heard it from somebody else while at feast of Dionysus. Of which the equivalent of it today would be he heard it in a bar somewhere.

But I think its the recounting in one of platos books about another Greek historian who heard it from an Egyptian priest who wanted to be all mysterious and mythical and stuff. The ancient Greeks had a thing for all things mysterious and mythical and stuff, so much so that they were preoccupied with invisible imaginary beings who lived in the sky and on a mountain who always watched them and there so called deeds and liked to play pranks on them.

I know. Sounds like the heights of self importance and mass delusions. But I assure you, the ancient Greeks were not the ones to reach the heights of that, they were merely one of its many pioneers.

History just may be the worlds longest running fiction novel, encompassing millions of peoples opinions stretched out over thousands of years of he said she said or once it was written and etc etc.

a reply to: DelMarvel

Hm. okay now I feel confused.

a reply to: Revolution9

I loved Dante's Inferno.

But wouldn't a trade port in the Atlantic make sense? If Atlantis were a hub of some sort for sea travel, that would better explain how African pottery made it to Mexico and things like that. You know, instead of it being as a result of the 'ancient aliens'. Because it is really weird that these cultures that supposedly had no way of meeting one another had items from that other culture. One would think that there were established naval routes that we do not know of.

Regardless, what do you think of the Merovingian kings and their supposed powers? Do you think that it has connections with Basque cultural history? Where did that all start, is what I guess I'm asking--and to me, that story of Atlantis makes sense (especially with regards to the Basque people). So if these people were gifted in some way, what happened to them? Why were they usurped by the Carolingians if they had such prowess? And what part do they play in the world today (if any)?

a reply to: Revolution9

You have mistakenly thought I was replying to you when in fact I was saying the OP Rukia had it wrong when she/he said Socrates supposedly witnessed the fall of Atlantis.

I agree with you it's a work of fiction; perhaps influenced by the real story of Thera/Santorini.

originally posted by: rukia
a reply to: DelMarvel

Hm. okay now I feel confused.

Revolution9 thought I was talking to her/him not you--is that why you're confused?

Just go back and check the source material. You can find translations of Plato online for free.

a reply to: DelMarvel

Ahhh yes I replied to you then deleted it thinking you were replying to Revolution9.

Thank you--that throws a bit of a big kink in things. But I feel like I have seen some other reference to Atlantis. Though I don't remember the source, so that's not really useful. I am just trying to use Atlantis to explain Basque--which confounds me. (and since it involved magic I was like bingo! it could be a match, but it really is a shot in the dark). If you could help me explain their (Basque) culture better (the origins), then maybe we can understand the power of these long-haired kings a bit better.

Like was this some weird divergent tribe of Judah who still worshiped Ba'al or something? I know they used to to that for a while after leaving Egypt. And then we have Basque, where they talk of literally living and working side by side with these demonic-sounding (in my opinion) nature entities until the birth of Christ. And that's their history--like they say it's a fact. It's not just a legend or a myth to them. That's what's so interesting. And then add in the kings and all of their shenanigans and I get too overwhelmed lol

Just makes me wonder if the whole "divine right to rule" thing might not just be total B.S. after all.

a reply to: rukia

Sorry, I don't really know anything about Basque culture.

I just wanted to point out you had the Plato story wrong.

I realize it's just a peripheral point to your thread.

originally posted by: DelMarvel

And there really isn't anyone else in antiquity that "documents" Atlantis. Plato's is the only account.

Hold up, what about Roy and Barbara's account?

originally posted by: DelMarvel
a reply to: Revolution9

You have mistakenly thought I was replying to you when in fact I was saying the OP Rukia had it wrong when she/he said Socrates supposedly witnessed the fall of Atlantis.

I agree with you it's a work of fiction; perhaps influenced by the real story of Thera/Santorini.

No worries, I get it.

Oh I am being a bit hard. To reply to you and Rukia in one go. I accept that there is probably some allusion to destruction of Islands. There are many submerged human habitations being discovered all over the world. The Med has been an area of a huge amount of devastating earth quakes and possible tsunamis in ancient history.

My own belief is that Plato was mixing with fact with fiction in his allegory, just like Dante.

Rukia, your Basque lead has a basis in that:

en.wikipedia.org...

In 2011, a team, working on a documentary for the National Geographic Channel,[98] led by Professor Richard Freund from the University of Hartford, claimed to have found evidence of Atlantis in southwestern Andalusia.[99] The team identified its possible location within the marshlands of the Doñana National Park, in the area that once was the Lacus Ligustinus,[100] between the Huelva, Cádiz and Seville provinces, and speculated that Atlantis had been destroyed by a tsunami,[101] extrapolating results from a previous study by Spanish researchers, published four years earlier.[102]

Spanish scientists have dismissed Freund's speculations, claiming that he sensationalised their work. The anthropologist Juan Villarías-Robles, who works with the Spanish National Research Council, said, "Richard Freund was a newcomer to our project and appeared to be involved in his own very controversial issue concerning King Solomon's search for ivory and gold in Tartessos, the well documented settlement in the Doñana area established in the first millennium BC", and described Freund's claims as "fanciful".[103]

There are a huge amount of sunken places where humans once lived. Some places even in Roman times, like Pompei, were destroyed in a matter of hours. Obviously, tales must have been abounding all over the Med civilizations, from Egypt to Judea to Greece, about catastrophes and why the Gods or God were angry as the source of punishment. All these civilizations were related to each other, the later ones borrowing culturally very heavily from the earlier. This would have made great material for Plato.

In the conversations of Plato's "Republic" there are elements of reality probably and elements of imagination and fiction. It does not detract from the importance.

What is my beef: Well it is that writers should know what kind of work they are writing. It is not a good thing to write fiction posing as fact. Plato never did that. His work is an allegory and would have been originally understood as that. People of his time were still not wholly able to disambiguate fact and fiction (some still are not); the two often being woven together. Some contemporaries of Plato ridiculed him for being too fanciful as they were able to reflect on and criticise earlier literature as our ability to better objectify developed.

I guess Atlantis is fascinating because there is so much myth around it now after so many years and contributions. It has become a right old tangled ball of yarn that the most dexterous hands may not be able to wholly untangle.

The myths, the tales, the history, the culture, the civilization will continue to fascinate us. I'll not pour any more water on the OP's fire of enthusiasm. I would just urge keeping a wide birth and not being sucked into one particular version of events, especially by those writing fiction as fact. Allegory was and still is a widely used literary tool of expression. It is better that we know what kind of literature we are dealing with.

a reply to: Revolution9

It's a myth that resonates the same as Noah's Flood, Planet X/Nibiru, etc.--- vain human civilization grown too advanced for its own good and destroyed by huge catastrophe.

a reply to: rukia

then your most likely a negative blood type. The Basque people have the highest concentration of negative blood types.