Christian Scholar: The Bible is More Violent Than the Koran

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: Annee

America...the only country to use a 2 billion dollar plane to drop a $40,000 bomb on a $100 tent.

Good one. Exactly.

And what religious belief do you suppose most who planned and executed this claim?

a reply to: Annee

Based on my experience in the US Army... Almost certainly Christians. Hell, GW Bush claimed god talked to him and guided his path to war so...

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: Annee

Based on my experience in the US Army... Almost certainly Christians. Hell, GW Bush claimed god talked to him and guided his path to war so...

I know. And yes he did.

People are people. There are good, compassionate people, there are bad, angry people, there are both leaders and followers, and there are politically motivated people.

A good person, no matter there ideaology, is still going to be a good person. And on down the line.

Political Christians would turn the USA into a theocracy faster then you can blink if they could. Then every aggressive move an American made would be claimed Christian terrorism.

The average ME Muslim can't help that their country is a theocracy. It just is. That does not make every Muslim a terrorist.

a reply to: Annee

Agreed. There are some who would probably re-build the Statue of Liberty in the image of Jesus, like this one in Memphis, TN:

Green and strangely familiar, the Statue of Liberation Through Christ towers over a suburban Memphis intersection, her Christian cross held high as if repelling unseen forces of darkness. The statue, sculpted by Ryan Bessant in Alberta, Canada, weighs six tons (not counting its pedestal) and stands over seven stories high. She out-glorifies even the World Outreach Dome behind her, a megachurch that opened in 2001. The statue itself was unveiled with much fanfare on July 4, 2006.

roadsideamerica.com

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Annee

Agreed. There are some who would probably re-build the Statue of Liberty in the image of Jesus, like this one in Memphis, TN:

Green and strangely familiar, the Statue of Liberation Through Christ towers over a suburban Memphis intersection, her Christian cross held high as if repelling unseen forces of darkness. The statue, sculpted by Ryan Bessant in Alberta, Canada, weighs six tons (not counting its pedestal) and stands over seven stories high. She out-glorifies even the World Outreach Dome behind her, a megachurch that opened in 2001. The statue itself was unveiled with much fanfare on July 4, 2006.

roadsideamerica.com

OMG.

That is just horribly frightening.

Is that on public property? NO. It is on private property, paid for by private donations.

The 'Christian bible' - I assume you mean the Talmud or the Old Testament - is considered updated by the New Testament. So its violent past is moot.

The hebrews, or modern jews, do not feel obliged to act on all the elements of the Talmud (fortunately), which means its violent past is history, not present concern. Although most of that is not nearly as large-scale as as the Koran's advice.

The issue is what modern people choose to do with an idea, not what might be written down anywhere.

Please see great picture from rigel4 a few posts above for example. That is what some people do with a religion that sets them outside society.

Of course, their religion does not make it imperative, as part of serving god, that they undermine everyone else in the world to enslave and murder them. That can really complicate living in peace with your fellow man. You have to officially suck at upholding your religion in order not to be a psychopath in that case.

I do not consider the US military to be an outreach arm of christianity. That is simply the majority of the population, which is who staffs the military, so obviously the stats (and philosophies, probably) are connected.

I think most of the effort in the middle east has been a shell game for the contractors and some other (one world gov and other) reasons, and I feel desperately sorry for the people in those regions. It would be a lot more convenient if the bad guys could pull themselves into one general area a lot easier to bomb as 'the enemy' frankly. Such a disaster, anything else.

Much of the world is a cesspit right now. The middle east is just one area.

A good quote about this. He was not a christian btw (I assume most people know of the McKenna's)

"The apocalypse is not something which is coming. The apocalypse has arrived in major portions of the planet and it’s only because we live within a bubble of incredible privilege and social insulation that we still have the luxury of anticipating the apocalypse."

-- Terence McKenna

The irony of that statue of liberty return to "christ" is --

Unlike the catholic's stamping 'Christ' onto Jesus's name as if it were a surname only he owned --

The CHRIST is a sun+earth divine light present in many people in various %s and powerfully in someone every millennia or so. Buddha was a christ. Mithra was a christ. There's some debate but probably Krishna was a Christ.

EVERY mystical religion -- including QBLH (qabalah of the jews) -- has the Christ -- the center is the sun, the son, the christ, the heart chakra -- at its core.

Returning any culture to 'christ' would be a lovely, love-based thing and would mean nothing OTHER THAN THAT.

It would NOT imply anything at all about Jesus, or christianity, or the Church, or anything people in the USA associate with the word solely because it glommed onto the jesus name like a marketing slogan.

Well except the cross ala crucifix thing of course

a reply to: infolurker

Well, the thread is about a comparison of the actual texts and trying to address this increasingly common meme that somehow one book (primarily the Koran) is somehow unique in the fact that it contains violent passages.

Its not.

As to why the Koran has more of an influence over its followers, I couldn’t tell you. All of these Books claim to be the words of God so I can only speculate as to why Moslems take the teachings more seriously/literally.

I have not yet read Laying Down the Sword (though its been ordered), I would imagine that the more violent verses come from the Old Testament, which might explain why Christians may not be as influenced? Not sure.


a reply to: NthOther

It was not mine nor (IMHO), the author’s intent to “attack” Christianity. I think he was simply pointing out the fact that the Koran is not unique with regards to its violent passages.

I’m speculating that the author is viewing the Bible as both the OT and the NT. I would also think that the majority of the violence comes from the OT but I cant be sure because I have not yet read his book nor have I studied any of the religious Books in enough detail to make an assessment one way or the other.

But I do think there is some debate about the OT, the NT, the Laws and the concept of Grace.

I think you alluded to this in some of your other posts. Are followers of the NT required to or supposed to follow the Law(s)? And if so, which ones? Some of them, none of them, just the 10 Commandments?

I don’t think theres a clear answer. Much of it probably comes down to each individual’s belief system.

You’re probably familiar with the following, but I’ll add to the confusion and post it anyway:

Matthew 5:17-18New International Version (NIV), The Fulfillment of the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

originally posted by: RedCairo

The issue is what modern people choose to do with an idea, not what might be written down anywhere.

True.

There are 350,000 different Christian sects in the world. The typical clichés "that's not Christian, etc." really doesn't hold up.

Most Christians follow what their chosen leader tells them. Many probably wouldn't even know if they were following something from the Old Testament.

As far as the US Military not being an arm of Christianity --- I'd say that could be debated. Especially, the Air Force.

I'm only talking the Christian side because I was raised Christian. I speak what I know and have experienced.

But, contend that People are People. A good person is a good person, no matter the interpretation of their ideology.

a reply to: Annee

It's just an example of the mentality in this country. There definitely are people who would see America become a theocracy molded around the Christian religion. Some with enough money and supporters to build a 7-story high statue.

a reply to: gladtobehere

As to why the Koran has more of an influence over its followers, I couldn’t tell you.

I'd like to say lack of education, but it's more than that. It's indoctrination and malicious education.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: gladtobehere

As to why the Koran has more of an influence over its followers, I couldn’t tell you.

I'd like to say lack of education, but it's more than that. It's indoctrination and malicious education.

Don't we have areas like that here?

Don't we have areas here that try to force religion in public schools?

We're just damn fortunate America isn't a theocracy, not for lack of some trying.

I'm just saying you can see the parallels and what could happen.

a reply to: gladtobehere

Literacy rates among Muslim counties lag behind Christian nations. When you can't read, the only book that is important to you is your religious text. That might explain in part why we see high instances of extremism in poorer, less developed countries.

People who are illiterate and cannot read their holy books for themselves are a lot more open to being lead down paths of manipulation. Look at the Christian crusades, many of the participants during that time couldn't read and simply took what the Catholic church said as "authority". If these people had been been able to read, they may have not decided to blindly follow.

Bottom line, less educated people in less developed countries are more likely to become radicalized. On the flip side, that's a pretty scary thing to think about, considering how radical Christians in the USA (which has good literacy rates) are. So clearly literacy isn't everything. Although if you look at the most religious states in the USA vs. the worst educated states in the USA you begin to see a pattern:

The Most Religious States:

Mississippi – 61%
Utah – 60%
Alabama – 57%
Louisiana – 56%
South Carolina – 54%
Tennessee – 54%
Georgia – 52%
Arkansas – 51%
North Carolina – 50%
Oklahoma – 49%
(from ChristianToday)

Compare this to…

The Worst States for Education:

Mississippi
Alabama
Louisiana
Nevada
New Mexico
West Virginia
Arkansas
Arizona
South Carolina
Kentucky
(from WalletHub)


Least Religious States:

5. Oregon – 31%
4. Massachusetts – 28%
3. Maine – 27%
2. New Hampshire – 24%
1. Vermont – 22%

The Best States for Education:

5. Kansas
4. New Hampshire
3. Vermont
2. Massachusetts
1. New Jersey

When the majority of the states in the top correlate, once again, the conclusion seems to draw itself.

While it isn’t the only factor affecting education, religion is a major one with the broadest implication. It encourages the rejection of science, which of course is the foundation for education. Without the need to be educated, schools aren’t a big focus for communities – including when funding issues come up.

factbasedinitiative.org

a reply to: Annee

That's precisely it - we DO have areas and locales that want to teach Christian-only stuff; to demonize "the other."

To scare the bejeebers out of the kids with lies, and threats of torture and abandonment.......

and it's not hard at all to think about Malala, and what she endured (and survived).

ISIS and the Radical Religious Right are birds of the same feather. ISIS just has more weapons and vehicles....and a flag.

I almost edited my post to say "education about other cultures" is sorely lacking.
But of course, that's what the home-school fanatic Evangelicals want more than anything to AVOID - "Oh, HELL no, you are not going to have my kid copy some symbols from another language. You are NOT going to expose my kids to the FACT that other people aren't like them (or more importantly, like us!)"

Cultural Competency is what needs to be taught. It really bothers me that so many parents don't WANT their kids to become sophisticated, worldly, knowledgeable, and competent to deal with what real life in a global economy is all about.

Very disturbing.
Yet, I am told repeatedly that "parents own their children and have a right to teach them whatever they want." (And apparently to fight against them learning anything OTHER than 'what the parent wants them to know.' Not to mention the fact that the parents are often operating out of Cultural Incompetency themselves.)

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

When I was traveling around Europe, I met a TON of young people from New Zealand and Australia. Apparently it's kind of some unofficial tradition to travel around the world before going off to college. I think that's a great thing! Imagine getting some global perspective on things before buckling down and getting your higher education.

A lot of people in America who live in the heartland and "Bible Belt" don't travel much, if at all. It's more expensive to travel from say, Kansas to Europe than it is form NYC or LA. When you live on the coast you're also exposed to more people of various cultural backgrounds.

When you live in rural, heartland America -- you aren't exposed to as many people from other countries. It's a lot more homogeneous and most people share your same ethnic background and religion. It becomes a lot easier to reinforce "the other" mentality.

I don't think any of this is forced or anything -- just the way it is, when you live where you live.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs

Very disturbing.
Yet, I am told repeatedly that "parents own their children and have a right to teach them whatever they want." (And apparently to fight against them learning anything OTHER than 'what the parent wants them to know.' Not to mention the fact that the parents are often operating out of Cultural Incompetency themselves.)

I bet.

Children really are the future. And their future is not a cloistered square block radius, but the Global World.

No one raises children, you raise adults. If you live to 70, 52 years of that is as a legal adult. Hopefully, an educated, informed, involved, open minded, contributor to a Global society.

I'm a progressive futurist. Stuck, unevolving mentality drives me crazy.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Funny you brought that up. In another thread regarding the Radical Religious Right, I mentioned that I live in Kansas. It is 'governed' by a Dominionist. Our economy is in a shambles.

I grew up in the Jayhawk's home town - which has had for decades a very healthy proportion of foreign students going to KU. I met many delightful people from far-off lands in college----- our group of pals included Indians, Pakis, Egyptians, etc.
My home town is quite sophisticated, truly - yet, still "too big for its britches" in terms of actual potency. Foreign exchange students often come there to stay in the homes of resident students' homes...and that is reciprocal.

My daughter and my niece and nephews have traveled extensively (China, India, Germany and beyond) both during the course of their undergrad work AND during graduate school. So, I will defend Lawrence, Kansas as a liberal, progressive, sophisticated place to have grown up. Seeing "Kansas" on the list of "best education states" makes my heart feel warm.

Too bad that the elected Governor is a Dominionist (the rural voting populace is far larger than the college town).
Kansas school districts have had to FIGHT for their educational standards, and do a good job - but it's because they FIGHT the dumbing-down idiocy of curricula.

I worked for years at a major Hotel chain that often sponsored 'foreign interns' - many from places like Finland and Italy. The youths there are recruited and come for 6 or 9 months to work in hospitality here - then go back to their homes. THEY learn a lot, and anyone who is open-eared learns a lot from them.

I worked with people from Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, all over Central America, South America, and other places. (Not all were foreign interns - many were immigrant refugees).....

It was lovely. I will never forget all the people I met from other places. And I made a POINT of getting to know them.
"Fun with Foreigners" has been the motto of my nuclear family forever. My dad traveled the globe as an industrial engineer. He shared his stories with us.

We were not a "religious" household, but I was raised in the Episcopal Church, so I do know "mainline Protestant" religiosity. Some of my extended family are Roman Catholics. My kids were encouraged to learn as MUCH about others as possible. Neither of them are snobs, or bigots, or indoctrinated into any belief system.

IMO, that is how the rest of the world needs to be educating their kids.

Just saw this article a few minutes ago:
GOP Fearmongering Is Taking American Politics to a Dark and Disturbing Place

Since 9/11, a grand total of 93 people have been killed in terrorist attacks on American soil, and of those 93 people, the majority of them were killed by white conservative terrorists.

At least the WCT are still pretty well contained. That will not happen if Cruz (or those like him) get into even greater positions of power.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

When I lived in Summit County, Colorado (ski-bum central), we had LOADS of Australians and New Zealanders there - (delightful bunch, to be sure)....
they were on what I guess was a "walk-about" type of thing, like you say - traveling. Learning. In summer they'd go to Peru to ski, in winter come back to the US. Lovely people. Fun.

It makes me so sad that so many parents want to cloister away their kids.

Christianity and Islam are religions of the sword and share a blood soaked, brutal and genocidal past and present. Our only hope is to evolve past these systems of belief whose gods demand the putting to death of all those who do not believe as they do.

a reply to: heterodox