So, this is how a Milennial sees a solution to the "Living Wage" issue....

originally posted by: Eilasvaleleyn
a reply to: DBCowboy

No, I don't think I will.

Taxes aren't really a burden compared to their alternative. The real issue is their mismanagement, not their existence.

I'm tired of people thinking an "entitlement" check isn't a reality we're going to have to face if things keep progressing along the same course. I do not want an "entitlement" check to exist, but I think it is going to be inevitable, as American society seems quite dead-set on avoiding becoming Utopian.

Utopia?

Really?

We're still killing each other over religion and you think we're close to a utopia?

What you're talking about is communism. Government controlling who gets what and determining how much someone should make while providing entitlement checks for those who don't do anything.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: SlapMonkey

May I suggest that it is possible that the way you were raised, despite your protestations, HAS made you somewhat unrealistic about life in this century? Because I have to tell you, I have seen quite a bit of the thin end of the wedge, and I have worked my balls off my whole adult life.

You may, but that doesn't make your opinion any more valid than my own. Your anecdotal evidence aside, we live in different countries, so experiences and available option to succeed--whatever one's own opinion of that word is--may not be the same.

Effort is not enough, will is not enough, and even a combination of the both of those with a genius level IQ is not enough to produce success... It is a LIE. It may be one you were led to believe, but it is still a lie.

Again, your opinion on the veracity of my comment aside, obviously effort and will and intelligence aren't always enough--it's how and where and when you apply those attributes that can and often do create the success that one is achieving in their own life.

My view of "success" for me and my family is for us to be out of debt within 3-5 years. Once that is achieved and a large portion of my income is not going to pay someone else for letting me borrow some of their income, I will consider that a success, at least as far as finances go.

Other people consider making over $250,000/year and living in a big house with fast cars in the garage and 2.5 kids in Ivy League schools being "successful." I think that is over-extravagant and excessive, but I certainly wouldn't berate anyone for pursuing and possibly achieving that goal.

To each their own.

So, you may suggest whatever you want, but it doesn't make your opinion fact, nor does my opinion hold true all around the world and in every situation. But the problem isn't the ability to achieve one's goal of success, but often times the ingrained apathy in modern culture that holds people back.

Boohoohoo, another thread by frustrated conservatives that do not want others to have a decent life if they didn't "suffer" as much as they did.
- Never accepting that maybe they wern't unlucky like others.
- Never aknowledging that they had help to get to where they are now.
- Forgetting that they had help from their family, from their friends, from co-workers.
- Pissing on everyone out there that just NEVER had any of the opportunities that life gave THEM.
- Thinking that people ALWAYS make their own opportunities.
- Oblivious that maybe their life recipe wouldn't work for everyone.
- Oblivous to the fact that people have different values.

Sure, let's deny others needs because you have your own needs covered. Bitter, no empathy, jealous and ENTITLED to their selfishness. No better than animals, they don't care about that majority has nothing as long as they have their little nest.

I never ever met someone who's conservative that didn't have an easy life. They might think they had it hard but they never did. They see their hardships with rose tinted glasses never knowing true despair, wealth rejection and failiures in which they couldn't have done anything better.

Glory days for new arrivals are almost over. There just aren't enough opportunities anymore for everyone but some PREFER to see the ones with no chances SUFFER instead of just having a minimum to better themselves.

Your little lives aren't worth nothing more than anyone else's. Your accomplishements are not better, your values aren't better and your refusal to move towards social progress is disgusting to say the least.

a reply to: theMediator

Hahaha...seriously, you start your thread with "Boohoohoo" and then proceed to whine about differing opinions?

And I'm sorry, but my values are much, much better than the jackass criminal who thinks that they can take, by force, whatever someone else has earned. If you can intelligently argue against that comment, I invite you to try.

And I'm no Conservative or Republican, I promise you that.

ETA:

originally posted by: theMediator
I guess there are some but I've never met a conservative that didn't get help from their parents to start their lives.

Anecdotal evidence means nothing in a serious debate.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: nullafides

When I read things like this, it literally makes me angry.

Why does a massive block of our modern youth think that they are entitled to the fruits of other people's labor? Why does this same block think that concepts like trickle-down economics is ridiculous, but forced trickle-down economics (socialism) is okay? Why the desire to have the government control and provide for nearly every aspect of one's individual life?

I was raised to believe that there is nothing that you can't achieve for yourself if you apply yourself and work hard. I'm not naïve enough to think that everyone's challenges and journey is the same--some do have it much harder from the moment they're conceived because of how and where they are raised and with what kind of role models that they have--but I do know that if every person wanted to, they could overcome almost any obstacle life places before them and become a success.

The willingness to hand over control of one's life to the government is something that I will NEVER understand. I don't know if it's an education thing, a parenting thing, a social trend thing, an apathy thing, a manufactured guilt thing, or whatever it is, but if it doesn't turn around (and I have full faith that it will, as this type of mentality seems to ebb and flow throughout history), we're in for a world of hurt in the coming years as a society.

Nice fantasy, was that mother goose?

Because there is X amount of success in the world.

Meaning it is not even possible for all those that are hard working and make the right decisions to succeed.

Especially when those at the top are constantly hoarding more and more of the resources for themselves.

You must be very old.

I am generation X, 37 years old, and I have seen the destruction of the American dream right before my very eyes my entire life.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Define "earned," "worth", and "value."

Try, just try. I'll see what you come up with.

Entitlement checks for those who don't work paid for by those who do work.

Theft.

But when you say "social justice", then it justifies theft.

a reply to: DBCowboy

With people sharing your mindset seeming to be occurring at a rate of about 20-30%, no, probably not. However, you seem to be agreeing with me. I did not say that an "entitlement" check was a necessity for Utopia, I said it was a side effect that results due to failing to become Utopian and trying to keep an old-fashioned Capitalism model.

I... I'm not sure you even know what Communism is, frankly. Like, at all.

a reply to: nullafides

20 years ago, I'd have agreed with you.
Now........things are different. Tesla builds a car, all day long, hundreds of them, with robots and maybe 12 people on the assembly line.

When no one needs workers...............what are you going to do?

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
And I'm sorry, but my values are much, much better than the jackass criminal who thinks that they can take, by force, whatever someone else has earned. If you can intelligently argue against that comment, I invite you to try.

Why are you comparing yourself to a criminal?

Your values of focusing on your own little life aren't better than those with values of bettering the lives of the people that have less than they do.

a reply to: DBCowboy

Wait, I thought you said it was Communism? Or was it Socialism...? I can never quite remember what the scare-of-the-week is.

Would it make you feel better if the people receiving these "entitlement" checks and didn't have a job did some useless, menial task, that would have otherwise been done by machines. Like counting seeds?

a reply to: Eilasvaleleyn

Goody! Now change he definition of communism, please!

When the government gets to determine how much you make and how much each person gets, then that is communism. Or state slavery. Choose one.

Either way it is theft. When government takes from me to give to you, it is theft by government proxy.

originally posted by: forkedtongue
Because there is X amount of success in the world.

No, there is not, because "success" is defined differently by everyone. What do you consider success, and why do you think that there is a finite amount of my definition of success in this world? Do you even know my definition of success?

Meaning it is not even possible for all those that are hard working and make the right decisions to succeed.

Well, again, "right decisions" is subjective. I know many people who make the wrong financial and employment and personal decisions constantly, but they can't see the truth right in front of them, and then they're always asking why life never goes their way.

But please note that in my comment, I specifically said that IF everyone wanted to, they could overcome ALMOST ANY OBSTACLE that life throws at them. So, I'm not saying that some people will fail even if appear to do everything appropriate and possible, but there are many in our current society who lack the drive and will, and expect things like 'a living wage' to be handed to them instead of earning it with their experience and skill.

And even terms like "living wage" mean different things to different people in different locations in America.

Especially when those at the top are constantly hoarding more and more of the resources for themselves.

Oh, you mean it's wrong for people to keep what is theirs? Is that your stance? It's a bad thing to keep what you've earned?

You must be very old.

I am generation X, 37 years old, and I have seen the destruction of the American dream right before my very eyes my entire life.

Well, I'm 36, so if I'm old, then...

Sounds like you need to seek out a new life, because I've moved from California to Germany to Tennessee to Kentucky (in the Cincinnati Metro Area), and every move that I've been willing to make has been a step toward my goal of success. That doesn't mean that I haven't been let go because of the economy, or had a job straight out of college that paid me less than $20k a year, but I have worked hard at chasing success instead of waiting for it to land in my lap. Millenials don't think that they have to chase anything, and that's my whole point.

But, I guess, what would this old man know about anything...I'm younger than you.

originally posted by: Eilasvaleleyn
a reply to: DBCowboy

Wait, I thought you said it was Communism? Or was it Socialism...? I can never quite remember what the scare-of-the-week is.

Would it make you feel better if the people receiving these "entitlement" checks and didn't have a job did some useless, menial task, that would have otherwise been done by machines. Like counting seeds?

I don't care what other people do or don't do.

I don't care what other people earn or don't earn.

Really. I could give a sh##.

originally posted by: Phage
What? You put the rice in the water? That's ass backwards!

They don't really bother me much, really. But they do eat some. Leave dust in the bottom of the container.

Lol it was late when I wrote that, but only you Phage would see the difference... You can always leave them in and call it GMO protein rice

Ya it is weird we keep a large rice container under the kitchen sink and it takes a good time to cycle through the bags, but in the last 8 years here I have not seen one bug. We buy only Jasmine rice with the elephant picture on the front from the Asian market, so I wonder if Thailand rice doesn't have as much eggs.

Speaking of GMO there is a rice called Golden Rice and I was in Dubai talking to a guy at the hotel bar a few years back who was their main sells person, and I guess it is loaded with beta carotene that gives it it's golden color and a ton of vitamin A. He was having a hard time getting it into countries where they lack vitamin A to the level of serious illness because people didn't like the color, but the bugs in their rice is just fine...geez

originally posted by: DBCowboy

I don't care what other people do or don't do.

I don't care what other people earn or don't earn.

Really. I could give a sh##.

That is why I like you DB..

a reply to: theMediator

I like how you keep referring to everyone whose opinion differs from you as "little"...very condescending and immature. Nice job bolstering your credibility with subtle attempts at making yourself seem more important than the next guy.

As to your question--you claimed that my values...well, your words:

Your little lives aren't worth nothing more than anyone else's. Your accomplishements are not better, your values aren't better and your refusal to move towards social progress is disgusting to say the least.

I compared my values to a criminal's because (a) you didn't specify with whom you were comparing my values, (b) comparing values with terrible human beings negates your attempted inference that all values are equally good, and (c) because I think Socialism is a form of legal larceny and criminal behavior on the part of the government, and I thought that you'd get that comparison. Hopefully others did.

And I have many people in my life who would say that my "little life" is highly important to them, so your opinion about those of us who differ with yours truly means little-to-nothing in the grand scheme of life.

Best regards.

I think people here don't realize that in countries with basic income, EVERYONE gets payed the same basic income ON TOP of their salaries. Even people that make 300 000$ a year still get the same basic income.

It keeps people from living in the streets, it gives people a chance to study in what they want, it gives people to opportunity to take chances without loosing their homes, it gives people that don't value wealth above all a chance to better themselves, it lowers crime, it lowers health problems due to poverty, it keeps people out of despair...

Saying that a system like this makes people lazy is just an opinion reflecting YOUR values. Almost all of the poor people laziness comes from despair as they have given up on they OWN life, which is understandable. What I don't find acceptable is the laziness of rich people as they have given up on humanity to focus on their own little lives and then REFUSE to change to gives others the same opportunities.

originally posted by: Eilasvaleleyn

If this generation has some sort of "problem", it was entirely created by the people who came before us. The failed economy, the environmental problems, the terrible healthcare, the wars, and the poverty, even our perception of the world. All of it. So call us idealistic, call us unrealistic, but don't you DARE call us entitled. I had to go off at Metallicus about this, I don't want to have to do it again. Some people might be entitled, but the same is true of every previous generation too. Have you ever heard of blaming the victim? This is exactly what it looks like.

All of the problems that you discuss were created by the current generation of baby boomers (for the most part)...the same ones who were the most vocal in many of the same things that Millennials are now. It's too bad that they can't recognize their own reflections in the cyclical mirror that is American society and policies.

You are entitled. You can go off all that you want, but your apparent generation (assuming that you're a Millennial) collectively thinks that you deserve everything on a silver platter, from an apparent free living wage from the government, to $15/hr minimum wage, to socialized medicine, to free education, to government protection against getting your feelings hurt, etc. I could continue, but I don't care enough to argue with someone who thinks personal responsibility and advocating a good work ethic and knowing that you must earn what you get in life in order to succeed is tantamount to 'blaming the victim.'

Hell, discussing this with someone who sees themselves as a victim is pointless.

Best regards. Good luck with the whole victimhood mentality.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

At the end of the day who's better off? The person earning $15US an hour in Australia with no entitlments, or the person earning $7.25US an hour in America with no entitlements... game, set, match... as far as I'm concerned, since I already know the answer.

Cost of living? I know your beer is damn expensive, so what has that magical 15 done to the cost of everything? Money needs to come from somewhere but it seems everyone thinks it just gets added to expenses with little effect.

Here is one quickie average that I looked up [e]Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 1,751.01 A$ [/e] or about 1300 US, that there eats up 8 US bucks an hour hehe

Also the 7.25 is not wide spread and is federally set so states also set minimum wages with 1/2 above 8 per hour and mine Washington at 9.47. When we look at the numbers 77 million hourly workers age 16 and up in the states and 1.3 million actually were paid minimum wage and 70% of that 1.3 million are part time workers.

When we look at after taxes Australia is still top dog in the world with 9.54 in the pocket off the 15.96 minimum, where US is 11th with 6.26 in the pocket off the 7.25 federal. If we looked at my state it would be about 8.45 in the pocket off the 9.47 minimum here. A buck difference, but then your cost of living might be higher too so so much for that buck. I'm not moving to Australia anytime soon to cash in on your 15.96 minimum...hehe