milk again

a reply to: anonentity

The article doesn't give any specifics about the milk used in the study, particularly if it came from cows treated with hormones, synthetic or otherwise. Nor does it mention if the milk was raw, homogenized or pasteurized... whole, 2%, 1% or skim... so many important details missing.

In terms of the effects of the hormones on the human body, I'm far more concerned about the many many synthetic hormones tainting our water, soil, food and air from Big Pharma and Big Ag, and the many many ways those synthetic hormones are affecting our bodies. There is much reason for concern... but naturally occurring hormones in milk are the least of my concerns!

And let me add in the interest of full disclosure: I'll give up my milk when someone pries it from my cold dead hands

a reply to: Agartha

Yeah, but when's the last time you've seen an adult male dog try to nurse on a female dog?

Animals stop drinking milk/nursing when they get older. If they're just handed some milk they'll drink it -- but they don't have milk-seeing behaviors.

originally posted by: Boadicea

The article doesn't give any specifics about the milk used in the study, particularly if it came from cows treated with hormones, synthetic or otherwise. Nor does it mention if the milk was raw, homogenized or pasteurized... whole, 2%, 1% or skim... so many important details missing.

^^ we raised the same point!

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
Yeah, but when's the last time you've seen an adult male dog try to nurse on a female dog?

Animals stop drinking milk/nursing when they get older. If they're just handed some milk they'll drink it -- but they don't have milk-seeing behaviors.

We evolved differently: at one point our ancestors started domesticating animals to feed themselves, I don't think we can make a fair comparison.

originally posted by: Agartha

originally posted by: Boadicea

The article doesn't give any specifics about the milk used in the study, particularly if it came from cows treated with hormones, synthetic or otherwise. Nor does it mention if the milk was raw, homogenized or pasteurized... whole, 2%, 1% or skim... so many important details missing.

^^ we raised the same point!

Haha! I'd say that great minds think alike, but my kids tell me that great minds really think for themselves and come to the same conclusions

In all seriousness, I am very aware (and grateful!) for you and other ATSers who have skooled me on what to look for and what questions to ask myself when reading about medical studies and how I have benefitted... so thank you!

originally posted by: Boadicea
Haha! I'd say that great minds think alike, but my kids tell me that great minds really think for themselves and come to the same conclusions

In all seriousness, I am very aware (and grateful!) for you and other ATSers who have skooled me on what to look for and what questions to ask myself when reading about medical studies and how I have benefitted... so thank you!

hahaha great minds indeed, and you are becoming a pro, girl!

Seriously, I know some of us have spent years studying medical sciences but we still learn everyday, and we also learn from each other! Even here, some posts make me go back to my books and journals and I actually appreciate that.

originally posted by: Agartha
a reply to: anonentity

Thank you for this post. Very interesting but more research is needed as the number of participants was really small and in one location only. More studies could clarify unanswered questions that are vital to determine whether these results can be confirmed, for example: more people in different countries, cows with different feeds, were all participants affected equally, how long were the levels of testosterone lower for, etc. One small study such as this one does not confirm their conclusion as results need to be replicated.

Also, I read the whole article and the male adult participants (only seven of them) were given large amounts of milk in a very short period of time (aprox. 1000ml in 10 minutes):

"Serum testosterone concentrations decreased considerably 120 min after intake in all subjects: before and lowest point: 6.04 ± 0.38 ng/mL and 4.94 ± 0.13 ng/mL

That is an 18% drop which is not that significant when you compare it to the drops in testosterone on patients who take opiates and use asthma inhalers.

Like I said, thank you for posting this, but more research is definitely needed.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
...we are the only specie on earth to drink the milk of another specie, and also we keep drinking it long after we stop being babies, which again no other specie does.

We are also the only species that can write and hold a cup which makes the comparison redundant. Animals like milk and they drink it if they find it in a bowl, I have seen dogs, cats, ducks and goats drink cow milk. Animals cannot access milk by themselves, that's the only reason why they don't drink it. Milk has helped our evolution and in a way it allowed our ancestors to 'convert' grass into fats and proteins, which are essential.

You are right a great deal more study needs to be done. But the anecdotal evidence has a strong suggestion that the effects of dairy consumption are cumulative in many ways. We are just talking hormones here, but their is strong evidence it upsets insulin production, and very strong evidence that the type of fat in Dairy, will coat the cardio vascular system quite quickly leading to elevated blood pressure, it also un coats the system quite fast as well, so if you are on blood pressure medication, and give up Dairy, after ten days , your Blood pressure will drop significantly and might be too low, if your still taking the pills.l

originally posted by: anonentity

You are right a great deal more study needs to be done. But the anecdotal evidence has a strong suggestion that the effects of dairy consumption are cumulative in many ways. We are just talking hormones here, but their is strong evidence it upsets insulin production, and very strong evidence that the type of fat in Dairy, will coat the cardio vascular system quite quickly leading to elevated blood pressure, it also un coats the system quite fast as well, so if you are on blood pressure medication, and give up Dairy, after ten days , your Blood pressure will drop significantly and might be too low, if your still taking the pills.l

Please post evidence for the above so we can discuss it.

a reply to: Agartha


If milk was so good why wont the concerns go away . www.nutritionmd.org...

a reply to: anonentity

This is a meta-analysis which has analyzed hundreds of small studies and found that milk actually reduces the risk of heart disease, stroke and type 2 diabetes: LINK. This meta analysis is from 2010 but the studies are from late '90s to early 2000. An extract:

Meta-analyses suggest a reduction in risk in the subjects with the highest dairy consumption relative to those with the lowest intake: 0.87 (0.77, 0.98) for all-cause deaths, 0.92 (0.80, 0.99) for ischaemic heart disease, 0.79 (0.68, 0.91) for stroke and 0.85 (0.75, 0.96) for incident diabetes. The number of cohort studies which give evidence on individual dairy food items is very small, but, again, there is no convincing evidence of harm from consumption of the separate food items. In conclusion, there appears to be an enormous mis-match between the evidence from long-term prospective studies and perceptions of harm from the consumption of dairy food items.

The consumption of milk is associated with an increase in the level of high density lipoprotein cholesterol (good cholesterol) and with a reduction in blood pressure.

This is a 2013 study that actually showed milk is good to prevent type 2 diabetes: LINK. Study results suggest that high dairy consumption (4 servings/d) may improve insulin resistance without negatively impacting bodyweight or lipid status under free-living conditions.


The picture is complicated, too many factors that affect our health to focus on one or two only and genes seem to play a big part on how our bodies react to certain foods:

Results from early studies suggested an association between dairy products and higher cardiovascular risk (CR). Considering that dairy products are rich in saturated fatty acids (SFA) and that a consistent association between higher SFA consumption and plasma cholesterol concentrations had been shown, these results were considered evident.

However, several later investigations dispute such an association between consumption of dairy products and greater CR, and even find the association between dairy intake and hypercholesterolemia to be inconsistent.

Moreover, recent meta-analyses have reported an inverse relationship between dairy consumption and CR, and a favorable effect on lipid profile has been suggested.

Despite numerous studies, the effect of genetic variation has not been investigated in depth to explain the heterogeneity of results and provide better balance in the recommendations. Recent work suggests that variations in the lactase gene could be of importance in this relationship.
LINK

a reply to: Agartha



Yes I notice that one analysis done by the Dairy board came to the conclusion that milk dropped blood pressure, but in the fine print it said fat free milk, and fermented dairy like yoghurt. What seems go be getting clearer is that fats and sugar not combined in Nature, but in processed food switch off the ability to stop eating, Dairy would be one of the fat culprits, sugared up, in many guises. Milk is basically liquid meat, and found hidden in a massive amounts of processed foods combined with sugar in most cases. Its probably ok in moderation but in some cases fifty percent of the diet contains dairy in some form or other.

a reply to: AmericanRealist

there is a highly informative book by michael moss called salt, sugar, fat. it explains in detail how the food industry is chemically engineering products that taste saltier than natural salt and sugarier than natural sugar. just to make processed foods more addictive. these are all the indecipherable ingredients that you see on processed food packages.

I'll just say that our youngest have had a hard time with ear fluids and constantly dripping from the nose.

Once we took him off dairy completely and onto soy instead, he's been A LOT better. We tried giving him a bottle of milk one weak late night... he threw it up 2 minutes later.

ANIMAL FLUIDS ARE NOT FOR PEOPLE. Why is that not obvious to people?

AND HONESTLY, I DON*T GIVE A F ABOUT DAIRY FARMERS AND THEIR LIVELYHOOD......

a reply to: rickymouse

Milk also opens up the gut so we can uptake proteins that are not be ready to be uptaken

Interesting affirmation. Do you have solid evidence on this? I would like to further investigate.

Since more than a decade, I closely follow someone with MS and have good info also from all her friends also having MS. And despite the fact that initially I found the theory about guts permeability as being nonsense, now I think it is undeniable, too much similarities among many peoples with MS.

originally posted by: PeterMcFly
a reply to: rickymouse

Milk also opens up the gut so we can uptake proteins that are not be ready to be uptaken

Interesting affirmation. Do you have solid evidence on this? I would like to further investigate.

Since more than a decade, I closely follow someone with MS and have good info also from all her friends also having MS. And despite the fact that initially I found the theory about guts permeability as being nonsense, now I think it is undeniable, too much similarities among many peoples with MS.

Here is an interesting article. It is not what I was talking about though. www.nejm.org...

Trying to find articles on the relationship is hard when you just ate turkey for supper. I can't find the proper search words to show this.

I will try to explain how milk works. It has chemistry that increases permeability of the gut. Babies drink just milk in the beginning, the mother gives them a food that is pure and it doesn't need to be screened for problematic proteins. As the baby starts eating other foods, it cuts down on the milk replacing the liquid with waters. This results in a more closed permeability and our immune system starts to work and learn how to deal with food chemistry better. But when any animal gets older, they aren't supposed to be stimulating this gut barrior while eating a variety of food. Cows eat grains, usually not much wheat which also opens up the permeability. Egg white also has chemistry that increases permeability, it is meant to be used by the chick to grow. In the egg, there is a membrane beneath the shell and around the yolk and this membrane actually is less permeable, the one to the embryo is more permeable to the white.

Even the juice of a steak contains this albumin which opens up the gut. Our bodies actually adapt to this but when drinking milk along with other foods it becomes more of a problem. We all have antigens against most cows meat and milk. There are type a and type b cows. Same with milk from these cows. If the milk did not increase permeability it would not be a problem.

Now older people sometimes turn to milk because of intrisic factors or problem taking up nutrients from food. Our guts get kind of lax after we get older. But this lax can actually come from abusing the gut by overconsumption of glutamine containing foods which increase healing and thicken the gut. So wheat and grains have a lot of glutamine and overconsumption can lead to intrisic factor. But that loss of uptake of nutrients is not really helped that much by milk because cows milk is way different than human milk.

Everything needs to be balanced, but our high gluten wheat and use of milk is not actually right for us. Even stuff like piperadine and hot peppers have effects on the gut permeability. Black pepper actually stimulates gut repair but overuse causes the gut to thicken again. Certain foods actually increase or retard our immune response too but that is a different subject.

So how milk is intended by nature to work actually can cause a problem in us because of our diverse diet. If you drink it alone, it probably is not bad. Drink milk when you are hungry, drink water when you are thirsty. I don't think drinking milk with your lunch or dinner is right, drink a glass at night is maybe best.

Milk is a great antidote for many things, it is a medicine, not an everyday beverage unless you are sick where you need it.

a reply to: rickymouse

Thanks for the explanation. We too are of the opinion that milk shall no longer be consumed past a specific age. If you find what protein or exact chemical is responsible for the increasing of gut permeation, please let me know.

a reply to: flice


I had a discharge at the back of my throat and a deaf left ear, it slowly cleared up after I stopped the Dairy, and the ear came right. I am also sure that the ten percent rule of animal protein in the diet, gets totally blown out the window when you consider Cows milk as liquid meat. The trial they did with nurses, where the non Dairy group suffered less Osteoporosis than the group that drank the stuff, must ring alarm bells, as the only way the body could balance the acidic PH was to remove calcium from the bones.