BREAKING: Grand jury declines to indict Cleveland policemen in fatal shooting of 12-year-old Tamir R

a reply to: ReadLeader

Maybe I am overlooking something very fundamental here, but why can't police just have tranquilizer guns of sorts.
Something lethal and non lethal at the same time.

To expensive, to sci-fi or is legislation about such things just impossible?

No matter who was right, we can all agree that this was a sad turn of events. no CIV or LEO would argue that point Is my presumption.

a reply to: GamleGamle

No matter who was right, we can all agree that this was a sad turn of events. no CIV or LEO would argue that point Is my presumption.

Yes they would and did so in this thread and the case itself, people make all kind of excuses for the above.

originally posted by: Greven

There are also the slides released by the prosecutor here. You can find the slides linked on this page and go over them if you wish. The rate of capture appears to be 2fps; two frames per second.

#5 is wrong - Rice doesn't see the police before he leaves the table at 15:30:12. He leaves the table facing the other direction from the police car, which is stopped at a distance observing. He appears to finally notice the approaching police car at 15:30:14, while standing near a support post. He starts to move towards the road at 15:30:17 with his hands in front of his stomach, as the police car begins its off-road driving.

I think #5 is accurate as is but added more info for clarity. The vehicle does not approach from his rear but from his left.

I think the fact that the officer ducked behind the police car is what convinced the jury that he was in fear of his life, not to mention the motion Rice's right arm makes. I am sure they role played it out in court as well. Everyone can look for themselves, data is below. Page 113 is a good place to start if you don't want to look at all of the slides.

Direct Link to Forensic PDF

Direct Link to Updated Events Post
Added this link because we passed the 4 hour limit on post edits.

originally posted by: Spider879
a reply to: BIGPoJo

Apples and oranges. The kid was menacing with what looked like a real gun in the park where kids play which is a crime. This man was holding his weapon in a legal manner on his shoulder without menacing, he did not break the law. Charges were dropped and was considered a wrongful arrest.

Yeah apples and oranges in terms of outcome, what didn't happen was death in seconds upon arrival from what looked to me of a drunken old belligerent .

The main difference is that brandishing a weapon, even a fake one, pointing it at people, menacing, ect. is a crime. The person in the open carry video did not break the law and was found to be wrongfully arrested and did not break the law. Look it up. I am sorry if that does not fit your narrative but those are facts.

a reply to: Spider879

Personally if I was a police officer, I would have no qualms with neutralizing someone who has already opened fire on my colleagues, but shooting someone who possibly was about to fire before anything even happened.... I would consider a great personal failure.

Why? Because LEO's have real or perceived power of authority and action. ""With great power, comes great Response-Ability"" As shown in a video in one of your previous posts, their is nothing stopping these officers from going about this situation more meticulously. Keeping distance, using a speaker, setting of the area, assessing the state of mind of the suspect ect.

I personally feel dispatch should have been more thorough in providing information to the policemen.

You would think police would be able to assist in and have the materials to treat gunshot wounds, however superficially until true medics would arrive or that they would review the personnel files of prospective new members to the force.......

According to Judge Ronald B. Adrine in a judgement entry on the case "this court is still thunderstruck by how quickly this event turned deadly.... On the video the zone car containing Patrol Officers Loehmann and Garmback is still in the process of stopping when Rice is shot.

As is almost always the case simple blame game is not the option. There are many factors that make things happen as they happen, but since the police shot the boy ""however large and heavy"" its on them to make the case that it was justified. I can not see that happening.

Kind Regards

originally posted by: BIGPoJo

originally posted by: Spider879
a reply to: BIGPoJo

Apples and oranges. The kid was menacing with what looked like a real gun in the park where kids play which is a crime. This man was holding his weapon in a legal manner on his shoulder without menacing, he did not break the law. Charges were dropped and was considered a wrongful arrest.

Yeah apples and oranges in terms of outcome, what didn't happen was death in seconds upon arrival from what looked to me of a drunken old belligerent .

The main difference is that brandishing a weapon, even a fake one, pointing it at people, menacing, ect. is a crime. The person in the open carry video did not break the law and was found to be wrongfully arrested and did not break the law. Look it up. I am sorry if that does not fit your narrative but those are facts.

Like the poster above me said

Because LEO's have real or perceived power of authority and action. ""With great power, comes great Response-Ability"" As shown in a video in one of your previous posts, their is nothing stopping these officers from going about this situation more meticulously. Keeping distance, using a speaker, setting of the area, assessing the state of mind of the suspect ect.

All under a second those are the facts a dead pre-teen. but go ahead justify your killer cop he is a real He-man hero type.

a reply to: Spider879

Its already been decided, by a grand jury. I don't know how much more justice or what type of justice you expect. It passed the measure of the law in one of the greatest if not the greatest country to ever exist on this planet which has a well manicured law system.

Please tell us what more should be done?

originally posted by: BIGPoJo
a reply to: Spider879

Its already been decided, by a grand jury. I don't know how much more justice or what type of justice you expect. It passed the measure of the law in one of the greatest if not the greatest country to ever exist on this planet which has a well manicured law system.

Please tell us what more should be done?

Investigate the prosecutor for throwing the case.

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: BIGPoJo
a reply to: Spider879

Its already been decided, by a grand jury. I don't know how much more justice or what type of justice you expect. It passed the measure of the law in one of the greatest if not the greatest country to ever exist on this planet which has a well manicured law system.

Please tell us what more should be done?

Investigate the prosecutor for throwing the case.

Present your evidence or are you just trolling?

a reply to: BIGPoJo

Critics claimed McGinty's investigation was biased toward police, noting that his office hired people that included the police expert who testified at the trial of Michael Brelo, a Cleveland police officer who was cleared after he fired 15 shots into the car of two unarmed black motorists in an unrelated incident.
www.huffingtonpost.com...

In what alternate universe do a prosecutor plays for the defense.

a reply to: Spider879

Are you telling me that the judge, jury, and gallery were all scammed by the prosecutor but somehow the Huffington Post figured it all out? I guess that settles it. How should we punish this murderer?

originally posted by: BIGPoJo
a reply to: Spider879

Are you telling me that the judge, jury, and gallery were all scammed by the prosecutor but somehow the Huffington Post figured it all out? I guess that settles it. How should we punish this murderer?

Yes, as he is the one making the case against that killer cop, how he goes about it determined the outcome, imagine if you will him trying to prosecute a mob boss and have as his expert witness an active mob lawyer that previously got another mobster off scot free, understandable if said lawyer was working for the defense when the time came.
INVESTIGATE HIS AZZ!

I see this as another complete and utter failure of America's LEO training, and its culture in general with regards to firearms and law.

This is actually one of the cases where it seems the officer himself did not act with ill-intent.

a reply to: Shamrock6

I like you, man. It hurts me to do this, so I will leave my door open...come kick it down.

Are you suggesting they should have waited till he pulled the gun out and pointed it at somebody?

Who was around...?

Waited till he shot somebody?

Who was around...?

Waited for another unit, which was who knows how far away, to get there and hope that in the meantime nothing happened?

Yes!

After all, it was only a fake gun....

Oh, but the officers had no way of knowing that....

James Holmes killed many people in a theatre and had a real a gun: he is still alive. The N.Carolina church shooter killed many people and had a REAL gun: he is still alive. Both were apprehended ALIVE without ONE SHOT being fired.

You are trying to justify the MURDER of a TWELVE YEAR OLD BOY....

*I didn't state what I really wanted:

Come kick this door down....

*****Think coherently/formulate your thoughts before responding, my friend****

Fair warning

a reply to: BIGPoJo

You know.... history is going to decide if the US is the greatest country on earth..... so can not really call that an argument. Furthermore no nation has ever been free from Judicial corruption. Bias is ever pervasive.

What I am saying at the very least, just because a grand jury having authority concludes one thing does not make that conclusion the right one..... at least not on the merit of it coming from their minds and mouths alone.

I think its going to be a hard nut to crack trying to persecute these policemen, but I do certainly hope that some heart felt lessons could be learned from the whole encounter. Like dispatch be more thorough, Gov update your medical gear! he HR check your personnel! ect. Apologists who might say things just slip between the cracks. They simply do not care enough is my humble opinion.

Kind Regards

originally posted by: Eilasvaleleyn
I see this as another complete and utter failure of America's LEO training, and its culture in general with regards to firearms and law.

This is actually one of the cases where it seems the officer himself did not act with ill-intent.

Maybe not even training failure, possibly hiring someone not mentally fit for the job.

Timothy Loehmann

Loehmann, who fired the shots that killed Rice, joined Cleveland's police force in March 2014. In 2012, he had spent five months with the police department in Independence, about 13 miles (21 km) south of Cleveland, with four of those months spent in the police academy.

In a memo to Independence's human resources manager, released by the city in the aftermath of the shooting, Independence deputy police chief Jim Polak wrote that Loehmann had resigned rather than face certain termination due to concerns that he lacked the emotional stability to be a police officer.

Polak said that Loehmann was unable to follow "basic functions as instructed". He specifically cited a "dangerous loss of composure" that occurred in a weapons training exercise, during which Loehmann's weapons handling was "dismal" and he became visibly "distracted and weepy" as a result of relationship problems.

originally posted by: kimar
How is this possible? A cop drives up to a 12 year old boy with a toy gun and within 2 seconds shoots him dead.

We need to get these coward cops off of our streets and off the public payroll.

Pull a weapon on a cop fake or not .. Expect to get a few bullets your way. There's no arguing about it what do you honestly think the police will do if you point a weapon at them?

I'll ask you a question, what if the officers approached the boy and they both got killed? What would be your reply to that. Guns are deadly guns are dangerous you don't pussy foot around when dealing with firearms especially when you cannot tell whether they are real or not

Stories like this make me genuinely afraid to visit the USA. There have been so many shootings of people who were not threatening police officers that I can only conclude that the country employs jumpy paranoid trigger-happy morons in far too many police forces.

a reply to: BIGPoJo

well...its the law investigating itself. There is some conflict of interest.

There is video of him walking around the park pointing the gun at people. This is not a bright white Nerf gun. It looks real. The police responded to a male in a park with a weapon he had been pointing at people. That is all they had.

It is a tragedy all around. Do you really think this cop does not feel remorse for what happened? They of course will find anything to show the officer in a poor light but what about the kid that was shot. Why was he in a park unsupervised for hours?

This will also become a full blown racial issue as if the cops simply see a black kid and shoot him. Fact is, in the past 50 years, the rate of black Americans killed by police has dropped almost 70 percent. There is no increase.