BREAKING: Grand jury declines to indict Cleveland policemen in fatal shooting of 12-year-old Tamir R

For everyone in this thread second guessing the actions of the police officer you need to ask yourself this...

When should you shoot someone that has a gun? Do you wait until you can see directly down the barrel? Do you wait until they fire at you? Do you call your supervisor for permission to engage? Do you wait until that gunman shoots and kills a civilian. When is it OK to proceed with deadly force?

I know the answer, do you?

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Fascinating history lesson there Mom!!!


Shoot-Out in Cleveland Black Militants and the Police: A Report to the National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence:

I will be very interested to get back and read through all 97 pages when I get home tonight.!!!

My city had some race riots some time ago as well; funny how history repeats and replenishes huh?

a reply to: ReadLeader

Ha, well you're welcome. I'm tickled you were interested!

ETA: And, yes, when the methods have been tried and tested, they usually repeat.

originally posted by: BIGPoJo
For everyone in this thread second guessing the actions of the police officer you need to ask yourself this...

When should you shoot someone that has a gun? Do you wait until you can see directly down the barrel? Do you wait until they fire at you? Do you call your supervisor for permission to engage? Do you wait until that gunman shoots and kills a civilian. When is it OK to proceed with deadly force?

I know the answer, do you?

Ok here's the thing that I find wrong. Why did the cops roll up on him like that in the first place putting themselves in danger? I mean i know there was reports of him pointing the gun at people. Why didn't the cops observe at a distance with binoculars and assess the situation. The kid was alone on a picknic table with no one else around?

Cops all day long do felony stops using bullhorns and car speakers to control and arrest perps.

So tell me what went wrong here again?

a reply to: ReadLeader

BTW, here is another interesting quote from Jerome Corsi from an interview:

I always had an intuitive understanding of political protests and political violence. I got a top-secret clearance from the government in 1981 after I published a computer model that predicted the outcome of terrorist events. I published that in a journal at Yale in 1981, and then I started getting requests all over the world from intelligence agencies for that paper, and I got contacted by the Agency for International Development to help them on hostage survival when the Reagan administration just came in.

So I’ve been at this for a long time. I stopped doing the work on political violence – it kind of burned me out for a while – and I changed careers. I left universities and I went into financial services. I’ve been an innovator bring annuities, selling insurance in banks. That was really my claim to fame in financial services. I created four companies doing that that were all very successful.

So there's that. I very much doubt that Jerome Corsi is who he says he is.

ETA:
I read the above as: "I was recruited by an intelligence agency and disassociated from my past work on predicting the political usefulness of racial violence and terrorist events and began my 'cover life' in financial services."

originally posted by: Phibes

...

Ok here's the thing that I find wrong. Why did the cops roll up on him like that in the first place putting themselves in danger? I mean i know there was reports of him pointing the gun at people. Why didn't the cops observe at a distance with binoculars and assess the situation. The kid was alone on a picknic table with no one else around?

...

Are you saying they should observe him and act after he shoots and kills someone? How long should they wait during this observation period?

originally posted by: BIGPoJo

originally posted by: Phibes

...

Ok here's the thing that I find wrong. Why did the cops roll up on him like that in the first place putting themselves in danger? I mean i know there was reports of him pointing the gun at people. Why didn't the cops observe at a distance with binoculars and assess the situation. The kid was alone on a picknic table with no one else around?

...

Are you saying they should observe him and act after he shoots and kills someone? How long should they wait during this observation period?

He didn't kill anyone and the Police broke procedure and protocol and are guilty on murder and got off scott free, Thats my opinion.
Also it's amazing you glossed over my other points.

originally posted by: BIGPoJo
For everyone in this thread second guessing the actions of the police officer you need to ask yourself this...

When should you shoot someone that has a gun? Do you wait until you can see directly down the barrel? Do you wait until they fire at you? Do you call your supervisor for permission to engage? Do you wait until that gunman shoots and kills a civilian. When is it OK to proceed with deadly force?

I know the answer, do you?

When they face you.

But if its a child, first assumption is that its a toy, and I don't shoot. It would be among the most remarkable of circumstances that would have me thinking a 12 year old is going to kill me, and reaching for my sidearm. Remarkable enough that I can't really contextualize what that would even look like.

a reply to: Phibes

As mentioned before


The law defines a tip about a crime being committed- the callers did not advise that the gun was fake,

"black male on swings, cammo head jacket and keeps pulling a gun out of his pants and pointing it at people"

Code 1 call, signifies great risk to the public's safety... ""the tactics did fit into the active shooter (potential active shooter) policy""


The shooting was within the use of force policy.

albeit a terrible thing, had it been myself or any other officer the scenarios would be all over the board. Unfortunately when an active shooter/potentially active shooter call goes out, it most likely will not end well for the 'man w/a gun' -

On another note, I am a huge fan of less lethal (not readily available for all officers or departments)

originally posted by: Phibes

originally posted by: ReadLeader
a reply to: network dude


Agreed, Ndude, furthermore,

The law defines a tip about a crime being committed- the callers did not advise that the gun was fake,

"black male on swings, cammo head jacket and keeps pulling a gun out of his pants and pointing it at people"

Code 1 call, signifies great risk to the public's safety... ""the tactics did fit into the active shooter (potential active shooter) policy""



It is indeed a terrible thing, but if you are able to listen to the feed and watch the videos, the officers were in line with thier 'use of force' policy even though there was some negligence - as in many cases, at the end of the day, the officers had to make immediate decisions and act upon it.

I still think it could have been handled differently.

Yes, and I wish it was. But the mistakes all piled up, and at the end, there were too many for this to have a good outcome. It's easy to just blame the cop, but in reality, mistakes were made by:
1 the kids parents for not explaining why that toy needed to have an orange tip
2 the person who called 911 for not fully understanding what he was seeing
3 the dispatcher for treating this as a potential active shooter
4 the cop for reacting to fast to just the facts he had been given

It's a shame, and I hope everyone can have a good dialog and use this tragedy as a vehicle for positive change. There is way too much hate already with regards to this whole scenario. The last thing we as a country need is to be afraid of those who are here to serve and protect. (and those who's job it is to serve and protect need to keep that in mind with every person they encounter as well)

originally posted by: Phibes

originally posted by: BIGPoJo

originally posted by: Phibes

...

Ok here's the thing that I find wrong. Why did the cops roll up on him like that in the first place putting themselves in danger? I mean i know there was reports of him pointing the gun at people. Why didn't the cops observe at a distance with binoculars and assess the situation. The kid was alone on a picknic table with no one else around?

...

Are you saying they should observe him and act after he shoots and kills someone? How long should they wait during this observation period?

He didn't kill anyone and the Police broke procedure and protocol and are guilty on murder and got off scott free, Thats my opinion.
Also it's amazing you glossed over my other points.

What protocols were broken? Did the officers get disciplined for those infractions? Sorry if you think I glossed over some of your points. PM me those points and I will get back to you at my discretion.

originally posted by: Phibes

originally posted by: BIGPoJo

originally posted by: Phibes

...

Ok here's the thing that I find wrong. Why did the cops roll up on him like that in the first place putting themselves in danger? I mean i know there was reports of him pointing the gun at people. Why didn't the cops observe at a distance with binoculars and assess the situation. The kid was alone on a picknic table with no one else around?

...

Are you saying they should observe him and act after he shoots and kills someone? How long should they wait during this observation period?

He didn't kill anyone and the Police broke procedure and protocol and are guilty on murder and got off scott free, Thats my opinion.
Also it's amazing you glossed over my other points.

Might want to brush up on how Ohio defines what is and isn't murder, then. It's germane.

Though I, too, am curious as to what policies and procedures were violated, and your sources for same.

Everybody is giving their opinion, so I will too. This was a horrible mistake. Horrible enough that the shooter should receive jail time. When push comes to shove, they killed a harmless child with a toy gun.

What good is it to have vids, and bring these people before the courts if they are only going to let them off?

They killed a child. Someone should pay for this, and not only with money.

originally posted by: BIGPoJo

originally posted by: Phibes

originally posted by: BIGPoJo

originally posted by: Phibes

...

Ok here's the thing that I find wrong. Why did the cops roll up on him like that in the first place putting themselves in danger? I mean i know there was reports of him pointing the gun at people. Why didn't the cops observe at a distance with binoculars and assess the situation. The kid was alone on a picknic table with no one else around?

...

Are you saying they should observe him and act after he shoots and kills someone? How long should they wait during this observation period?

He didn't kill anyone and the Police broke procedure and protocol and are guilty on murder and got off scott free, Thats my opinion.
Also it's amazing you glossed over my other points.

What protocols were broken? Did the officers get disciplined for those infractions? Sorry if you think I glossed over some of your points. PM me those points and I will get back to you at my discretion.

Safe distance, Bullhorn, hands up. Enough said!

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Ha pants on fire meter on www.politifact.com...

originally posted by: ReadLeader
a reply to: MotherMayEye

Ha pants on fire meter on www.politifact.com...

See?
He's a provocateur!

originally posted by: Shamrock6

originally posted by: Phibes

originally posted by: BIGPoJo

originally posted by: Phibes

...

Ok here's the thing that I find wrong. Why did the cops roll up on him like that in the first place putting themselves in danger? I mean i know there was reports of him pointing the gun at people. Why didn't the cops observe at a distance with binoculars and assess the situation. The kid was alone on a picknic table with no one else around?

...

Are you saying they should observe him and act after he shoots and kills someone? How long should they wait during this observation period?

He didn't kill anyone and the Police broke procedure and protocol and are guilty on murder and got off scott free, Thats my opinion.in
Also it's amazing you glossed over my other points.

I, too, am curious as to what policies and procedures were violated, and your sources for same.

Again it's really simple actually. "Safe distance, Bullhorn, Hands up!"

a reply to: Phibes

Here is a 'snippet' of Ohio's UOF policy

Use of Deadly Force:
The preservation of human life is of the highest value in the State of Ohio. Therefore, employees must have an objectively reasonable belief deadly force is necessary to protect life before the use of deadly force. Deadly force may be used only under the following circumstances: To defend themselves from serious physical injury or death; or to defend another person from serious physical injury or death; or in accordance with U.S. and Ohio Supreme Court decisions, specifically, Tennessee v. Garner and Graham v. Connor.

Pretty much says it all.

originally posted by: Phibes

originally posted by: Shamrock6

originally posted by: Phibes

originally posted by: BIGPoJo

originally posted by: Phibes

...

Ok here's the thing that I find wrong. Why did the cops roll up on him like that in the first place putting themselves in danger? I mean i know there was reports of him pointing the gun at people. Why didn't the cops observe at a distance with binoculars and assess the situation. The kid was alone on a picknic table with no one else around?

...

Are you saying they should observe him and act after he shoots and kills someone? How long should they wait during this observation period?

He didn't kill anyone and the Police broke procedure and protocol and are guilty on murder and got off scott free, Thats my opinion.in
Also it's amazing you glossed over my other points.

I, too, am curious as to what policies and procedures were violated, and your sources for same.

Again it's really simple actually. "Safe distance, Bullhorn, Hands up!"

None of which is an actual policy or procedure. Unless you happen to have a copy of the CPD officer handbook.

No agency I've ever worked for has had a "policy" on where to put the unit I was in, how far away it was supposed to be, when to use the loudspeaker, and a script provided for any and every possible situation.

The unit I drive now doesn't even have a loudspeaker to begin with.

Loudly proclaiming that policy and procedure was violated doesn't make it true. The policy has to exist in the first place, which I'm willing to bet it doesn't.

originally posted by: Phibes

originally posted by: Shamrock6

originally posted by: Phibes

originally posted by: BIGPoJo

originally posted by: Phibes

...

Ok here's the thing that I find wrong. Why did the cops roll up on him like that in the first place putting themselves in danger? I mean i know there was reports of him pointing the gun at people. Why didn't the cops observe at a distance with binoculars and assess the situation. The kid was alone on a picknic table with no one else around?

...

Are you saying they should observe him and act after he shoots and kills someone? How long should they wait during this observation period?

He didn't kill anyone and the Police broke procedure and protocol and are guilty on murder and got off scott free, Thats my opinion.in
Also it's amazing you glossed over my other points.

I, too, am curious as to what policies and procedures were violated, and your sources for same.

Again it's really simple actually. "Safe distance, Bullhorn, Hands up!"

What is the safe distance to be from a person pulling a handgun on you?