Eating Meat is Unethical

a reply to: Son of Will
Re: "Do hunters need to kill other animals for survival?

No?

So that makes it a choice. They choose to destroy sentient life where no need existed.

Fundamentally unethical. "


Wrong actually. Plants don't grow on ice.

Have you heard of the Inuit? The "Eskimo" people? They survive on an almost 100% meat diet, lots of seals and stuff.

They get all the stuff they need from the food because they consume ALL of the animal. They can't get plants up there and have been living like this for hundreds (or thousands?) of years.

You think eating plants doesn't take lives? The plants were alive until their lives were ended for your salads. How many millions of insects were killed so you can eat your salad? Lots in the harvesting of those plants and millions more with the pesticides used to kill the insects.

originally posted by: Son of Will
I might be cocky myself, but at least I'm right. And I know it. Which is why I'm cocky. By page 4, not a single criticism that holds water. I'm hoping for better game tomorrow. I know at least a few of you are clever enough to at least throw a dent in the OP.

No, you are not right, you think you are right, big difference.

So, you said that seaweed has B12, let me correct you: seaweed is an algae and the B12 it contains actually comes from bacteria:

Many seaweeds have been shown to have B12 analogues. Seaweeds are macroalgae, which are technically not plants. Some macroalgae contain an enzyme that can use cobalamin. These macroalgae do not make their own cobalamin, but rather have a symbiotic relationship with cobalamin-producing bacteria. Note that I am purposefully using the term "cobalamin" rather than "vitamin B12" because it is not clear if these cobalamins are active vitamin B12 in humans. (Smith AG, Croft MT, Moulin M, Webb ME. Plants need their vitamins too. Curr Opin Plant Biol. 2007 Jun;10(3):266-75. Epub 2007 Apr 16)

Vegans can only get B12 by taking supplements, which are not natural, are they? They are man made, highly processed.

The only way to grow plants with 'some' B12 is by using lots of animal manure or human faeces and the vegetables still have extremely low amounts of B12 but you still need animal products to achieve it! (Mozafar A. Enrichment of some B-vitamins in plants with application of organic fertilizers. Plant Soil. 1994;167:305–31).

Or you could grow vegetables using idroponics and enrich them with vitamin B12, which is like supplements: man made.

Unwashed vegetables, like you mentioned, can be very dangerous. You may be lucky and grow your own but the majority of people have to buy them and cannot risk not washing them. And if you think you get B12 from your vegetables you are wrong, you get them from tiny insects and bacteria that live on them.

a reply to: NautPsycho

I love vegetarians! They taste the best!

originally posted by: Son of Will

My dad was a steakhouse fanatic. I understand, trust me.

BUT YOU UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE!
GQ's Best Burger has no Meat

Meat will most likely go just like gas will with future technology. I really do not think the human race can switch over just yet with 19 billion chickens, 1 billion cows, 1 billion pigs any given day that are constantly slaughtered then renewed, plus add in we are eating the oceans bare, so there is more to this than just taste good.

originally posted by: tinyDAWK
a reply to: NautPsycho

I love vegetarians! They taste the best!

I knew that one day the alien on ATS would finally show their self!

originally posted by: Son of Will
GQ's latest Best Burger competition went to a meatless burger.

And Glamour's woman of the year was a man last year.

originally posted by: Son of Will

You raise some really interesting points, but your timeline is a bit off. Agriculture is only about 10,000 years old, while the brain has been shrinking for between 30,000 and 50,000 years. Fruit, however, fits the bill pretty nicely. No ther food can boast the degree of symbiotic evolution that occurred between fruit, and us sugar-loving, seed-dispersing humans.
It's just a theory, but every aspect is consistent with known science.

Your numbers might be a little off, but then so could mine. Many reputable places and institution agree with this below that the brain was at it's largest size 20,000 to 30,000 years ago.

Small Brain

(PhysOrg.com) -- At Britain's Royal Society, Dr. Marta Lahr from Cambridge University's Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies presented her findings that the height and brain size of modern-day humans is shrinking.
Looking at human fossil evidence for the past 200,000 years, Lahr looked at the size and structure of the bones and skulls found across Europe, Africa and Asia. What they discovered was that the largest Homo sapiens lived 20,000 to 30,000 years ago with an average weight between 176 and 188 pounds and a brain size of 1,500 cubic centimeters.

They discovered that some 10,000 years ago however, size started getting smaller both in stature and in brain size. Within the last 10,000 years, the average human size has changed to a weight between 154 and 176 pounds and a brain size of 1,350 cubic centimeters.

While large size remained static for close to 200,000 years, researchers believe the reduction in stature can be connected to a change from the hunter-gatherer way of life to that of agriculture which began some 9,000 years ago.
Farming to blame for our shrinking size and brains

The fossilized skull of an adult male hominid unearthed in 1997 from a site near the village of Herto, Middle Awash, Ethiopia. The skull, reconstructed by UC Berkeley paleoanthropologist Tim White, is slightly larger than the most extreme …more
While the change to agriculture would have provided a plentiful crop of food, the limiting factor of farming may have created vitamin and mineral deficiencies and resulted in a stunted growth. Early Chinese farmers ate cereals such as rice which lacks the B vitamin niacin which is essential for growth.

Agriculture however does not explain the reduction in brain size. Lahr believes that this may be a result of the energy required to maintain larger brains. The human brain accounts for one quarter of the energy the body uses. This reduction in brain size however does not mean that modern humans are less intelligent. Human brains have evolved to work more efficiently and utilize less energy.

I saw an interesting video called how beer saved the world and through the dark ages where the first beer like drinks that were somewhat chewy were the primary diet instead of solid food that was not to be found, so I'm sure that period wasn't very good to our growth either.

a reply to: Son of Will

Dislike "preaching"?

Did I address my post to you ?

Or do you dislike it when you are reminded of your bad habits?

Did I address my post to you ?

I have many "bad habits" which I enjoy ... to what are you referring?

Because I'm making logical arguments that are either true, or false. If you can show anything I've said to be false, then please do so

Have I accused you of falsehood?

originally posted by: eNumbra

And Glamour's woman of the year was a man last year.

I really feel for Caitlyn since we have a few things in common. First she has always been a male with a woman inside of her, and I have always been a male with a lesbian inside of me, plus we both are hideous as a woman.

a reply to: artistpoet

The only falsehood I'm accusing the OP of is saying that eating meat is unethical. Because that utterly lacks logic. It relies only on Pathos. Therefore it is invalid.

a reply to: Son of Will

originally posted by: Agartha

Vegans can only get B12 by taking supplements, which are not natural, are they? They are man made, highly processed.

Don't worry GMO will save the world and cows...

"We have identified the DNA that controls the production of the vitamin B12 binding protein in humans. By means of genetic modification, we have transferred this DNA to a plant that we have cultivated in a green house afterwards", says Erik Østergaard, Professor at Aarhus University.

a reply to: rukia

The only falsehood I'm accusing the OP of is saying that eating meat is unethical. Because that utterly lacks logic. It relies only on Pathos. Therefore it is invalid.

Sure ... I am not taking sides btw
I think accusing others of being unethical is NOT the best way to start a discussion on diet choices

I do not eat animals nor any of their products but do eat fish
I have my own reasons for choosing the diet I eat but would not expect others to do as I do

originally posted by: Xtrozero
Don't worry GMO will save the world and cows...

Oh, the goddamn irony.

Here is a thought experiment for all the Veggies, would you eat GMO vegetables or non-GMO meat if those were the only two options?

originally posted by: Jennyfrenzy
a reply to: Son of Will

Not sure how eating meat can be called unethical...nor would eating a cheeseburger with bacon be aggressive. Plus, the roadkill could have died an aggressive death, some people aim to kill.

Deciding to go vegetarian or vegan is a personal choice. I was vegetarian for about 5 years but always felt like something was missing, and there was...meat

So I'll continue to eat meat, be thankful for the food chain and know that I'm not doing anything unethical.

vegetables live in their normal state until harvest and many even after as we eat the parts that would be eaten by any animal like the seeds to spread their species.
Ethical!
If you are going to eat them at least Look at the factory farms and see where they come from! make a choice based on facts and not daydreams. As the former owner of a butcher shop i can add that many "family farms" are no better.
People don't get it, there are few family farms anymore! 90% of the animals eaten live like this. Not only is their life, birth and death horrific but on top of it all they are abused by prodding with electric prods and numerous other things. Many animals are not even given room to lay down ever. The Mothers can't even get close to their young and they feel for their babies the same as we feel for ours!

originally posted by: rukia
a reply to: artistpoet

The only falsehood I'm accusing the OP of is saying that eating meat is unethical. Because that utterly lacks logic. It relies only on Pathos. Therefore it is invalid.

How about religion such as Hindu, Islam or groups like Monks where pathos has little to do with it? We may eat a cow but not fifi the dog or a horse, but in France horses are fine foods as is the guinea big is in Chili, so there are ethical aspects to this around the world, but I agree the ethics we need to deal with is the one associated with were we live since ethics is not the same everywhere.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

GMO veg would be my choice ... GMO is everywhere it is hard to avoid ... but I do as far as possible
I grow Organic veggies btw

Would I ever eat animal flesh again ... No unless it saved me from starvation

What would be your choice lol I think I can guess

originally posted by: SeaWorthy

That one to the far left looks a little gamey...

The question is how do you free range 19 billion chickens?

a reply to: artistpoet

I would eat them both. I am an equal opportunity offender.

originally posted by: BlackProject

originally posted by: Son of Will
This may sound outrageous, but in reality it is deceptively simple. All I need is one paragraph to make a 100% iron-tight argument. (Two caveats: first, by 'eat animals' I refer to the industry of keeping livestock or attacking animals for the purpose of consuming them or a byproduct of them. Roadkill is fair game. Second, those not living in a modern, Western society, without access to  the foods we take for granted, cannot be included. This is for the modern world. Anyone living in poverty must think of themselves and their loved ones first before other animals. I'm not advocating martyrdom.

Are you writing this from confusion and brain fatigue? They say that happens when you do not get the vitamins you need from meat. Sorry to see that.

Many Inuits live very healthy lives until old age on an only meat diet. Also considering their brains grow and become much more mentally stable then the average joe, if those who think eating meat is odd well its not. Most humans do not eat enough meat and therefore our brains shrink, this makes us ill. Eating meat will make you healthy, its a mixed diet that brings us down.

Inuit Lifestyle Lower Heart Disease Rate & Cancer

The longest lived people of the world eat little or no meat. The mentally stable thing? Watch Ak Cops where did you get such and idea.

The Eskimo diet has never been known to bring about a particularly long life spans.

Dr. Samel Hutton studied the Eskimos before widespread western food exposure from 1902 to 1913, and had access to detailed birth and death records kept by missionaries from the previous century.

He wrote in his book, "Health Conditions and Disease Incidence Among The Eskimos of Labrador," that, "Old age sets in at fifty and its signs are strongly marked at sixty. In the years beyond sixty the Eskimo is aged and feeble. Comparatively few live beyond sixty and only a very few reach seventy."

Compared to the Okinawans I mentioned before, who regularly live past 100 on a diet with almost no meat and plenty of plant foods, this seems rather pathetic.

www.raw-food-health.net...