Russia slashes cost of FGFA offer to India

Reports are that Russia is planning to make a new offer to India as part of the FGFA program. Currently India would pay $6B for a technology transfer related to building the aircraft in India, as well as prototypes.

Under the new deal India would reportedly pay $3.7B for the technology and three aircraft. The total estimated cost would be around $30B for 127 aircraft. The Indian Air Force is resistant to the idea of the aircraft however, due to cost and reliability concerns.

indianexpress.com...

a reply to: Zaphod58

So a tech demonstrator + blueprints essentially. Sounds like India got screwed

originally posted by: Bfirez
a reply to: Zaphod58

So a tech demonstrator + blueprints essentially. Sounds like India got screwed

Sounds like Russia is desperate to start dumping the tech at clearance prices.

a reply to: Vector99

This does sound like Russia is getting desperate. I suspect its because they fear the India's bailing on them and India paid quite a bit so far for the development.

a reply to: anzha

So if Russia's 5th Gen dies before production do we stall our 6th Gen a couple years and save some moola?

Its pure economics - the tech bargains are available due to low oil prices. We have ISIS, their in-bed lovers in Turkey and the house of Suad to thank for that.

a reply to: Bfirez

I don't think so. We need the new aircraft ASAP before all of our 4th gen's fall out of the sky from fatigue. The only way around not developing the 6th gen's to start replacing the older 4th's is a purchase of new build 4th's but I don't think the AF would be keen on that idea, Navy maybe. Either way it's just a band-aid and not a long term solution.

The truth is that the T-50 PAK FA (called FGFA in India) is pretty much ahead in the race. Compare it with the F-22 to include cost effectiveness, life cycle costs and capabilities and the FGFA is a winner. The F-22 is so expensive - three times the cost of a T-50 PAK FA - that production has stopped in favor of the F-35 which has been bugged by endless problems.

Unlike the F-22, the PAK FA fighter jet is also 100 percent digital. The jet will get “smart covering” that enables a pilot to have an all-round combat picture and maneuver with a maximum degree of efficiency.

This “smart covering” is a set of universal antenna systems that allows a pilot to understand what is happening to his front, rear, left and right. The all-round view is projected either on the pilot’s helmet or interactive cockpit. That means total situational awareness!

The upcoming power unit in 2017 will be more powerful and fuel-efficient, more reliable and will cost less. There is every possibility that new engine would enable PAK-FA to perform stunts previously impossible on any known fighter jet.

And check this out...

a reply to: OrionHunterX

Uhm, no. Yes it will have some capabilities that are more advanced than the F-22. Of course it will, it's 20 years newer.

Three times? Really? The estimate for the T-50 is $100M a unit. The estimated cost for each F-22 was $193M a unit. That's not even twice the cost.

The F-22 was not ended in favor of the F-35. The two aircraft are completely different in the roles they will play. The F-22 was ended over cost and mission concerns. At the time there wasn't a threat close enough to require 243 aircraft.

The F-22 also has 360 degree sensors.

I'll believe a Russian power plant will be that reliable and cheap when I see it. Russian engines have long been the bane of their aircraft's existence.

The T-50 will be an awesome aircraft, but cost overruns and delays have already caused Russia to cut it to 12 aircraft for now, and India to start reconsidering buying it at all.

originally posted by: anzha
a reply to: Vector99

This does sound like Russia is getting desperate. I suspect its because they fear the India's bailing on them and India paid quite a bit so far for the development.

India has its own 5th gen plane in the works. Even if they get the tech transfer plus a few aircrafts, it would be to improve their own design. End game would be for India to produce its own 5th gen fighter and induct it in large numbers

a reply to: asen_y2k

That's the biggest reason I can see for them going through with the program. They've had a lot of problems even with 4th Gen designs. Trying to design and build a 5th Gen will prove interesting without something to help them along.

The chairman of HAL says he hopes a decision will be reached within six months.

originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: anzha
a reply to: Vector99

This does sound like Russia is getting desperate. I suspect its because they fear the India's bailing on them and India paid quite a bit so far for the development.

India has its own 5th gen plane in the works. Even if they get the tech transfer plus a few aircrafts, it would be to improve their own design. End game would be for India to produce its own 5th gen fighter and induct it in large numbers

The HAL Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is an Indian project for a fifth-generation fighter aircraft being developed and designed by India's Aeronautical Development Agency and to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). It is a single-seat, twin-engine, stealth supermaneuverable all weather multirole fighter aircraft. Unofficial design work on the AMCA started in 2008 with official work started in 2011 and completed in 2014. In 2008 Indian Navy joined the programme for the naval variant optimized for the aircraft carriers operation.

The first flight is scheduled to occur in 2020–2022.

originally posted by: OrionHunterX

originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: anzha
a reply to: Vector99

This does sound like Russia is getting desperate. I suspect its because they fear the India's bailing on them and India paid quite a bit so far for the development.

India has its own 5th gen plane in the works. Even if they get the tech transfer plus a few aircrafts, it would be to improve their own design. End game would be for India to produce its own 5th gen fighter and induct it in large numbers

The HAL Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is an Indian project for a fifth-generation fighter aircraft being developed and designed by India's Aeronautical Development Agency and to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). It is a single-seat, twin-engine, stealth supermaneuverable all weather multirole fighter aircraft. Unofficial design work on the AMCA started in 2008 with official work started in 2011 and completed in 2014. In 2008 Indian Navy joined the programme for the naval variant optimized for the aircraft carriers operation.

The first flight is scheduled to occur in 2020–2022.

Do you think the Indian deal with Russia to buy a few of their 5th gen plane has anything to do with their own fighter. Has the design of the AMCA already been fixed by the Indians?

originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: anzha
a reply to: Vector99

This does sound like Russia is getting desperate. I suspect its because they fear the India's bailing on them and India paid quite a bit so far for the development.

India has its own 5th gen plane in the works. Even if they get the tech transfer plus a few aircrafts, it would be to improve their own design. End game would be for India to produce its own 5th gen fighter and induct it in large numbers

What are the Indians doing with the Rafale? I dont know but throwing it out there, they might be able to get help up skilling if they were such jerks negotiating.

For a country with a space program, their indigenous aircraft are pretty non existent. Tejas...

What are their engines like?

originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: OrionHunterX

originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: anzha
a reply to: Vector99

This does sound like Russia is getting desperate. I suspect its because they fear the India's bailing on them and India paid quite a bit so far for the development.

India has its own 5th gen plane in the works. Even if they get the tech transfer plus a few aircrafts, it would be to improve their own design. End game would be for India to produce its own 5th gen fighter and induct it in large numbers

The HAL Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is an Indian project for a fifth-generation fighter aircraft being developed and designed by India's Aeronautical Development Agency and to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). It is a single-seat, twin-engine, stealth supermaneuverable all weather multirole fighter aircraft. Unofficial design work on the AMCA started in 2008 with official work started in 2011 and completed in 2014. In 2008 Indian Navy joined the programme for the naval variant optimized for the aircraft carriers operation.

The first flight is scheduled to occur in 2020–2022.

Do you think the Indian deal with Russia to buy a few of their 5th gen plane has anything to do with their own fighter. Has the design of the AMCA already been fixed by the Indians?

They flew the Tejas in 2001 and it still hasn't entered service, I doubt any Indian defense politico would back their own capability. They have lost 6 x Su-30MKI in peacetime ops...

Incapable of decent manufacturing for some reason. When I were buying castings I was in discussions with Westalnd, Westland off-shored all their castings to India saving millions, by the time I had plagiarized their business case, they brought all the tools back, less than a year later at great cost as they had to pay for them all to have FAI. The Indians couldnt even make castings from decent Sheffield tooling.

originally posted by: Forensick

originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: OrionHunterX

originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: anzha
a reply to: Vector99

This does sound like Russia is getting desperate. I suspect its because they fear the India's bailing on them and India paid quite a bit so far for the development.

India has its own 5th gen plane in the works. Even if they get the tech transfer plus a few aircrafts, it would be to improve their own design. End game would be for India to produce its own 5th gen fighter and induct it in large numbers

The HAL Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is an Indian project for a fifth-generation fighter aircraft being developed and designed by India's Aeronautical Development Agency and to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). It is a single-seat, twin-engine, stealth supermaneuverable all weather multirole fighter aircraft. Unofficial design work on the AMCA started in 2008 with official work started in 2011 and completed in 2014. In 2008 Indian Navy joined the programme for the naval variant optimized for the aircraft carriers operation.

The first flight is scheduled to occur in 2020–2022.

Do you think the Indian deal with Russia to buy a few of their 5th gen plane has anything to do with their own fighter. Has the design of the AMCA already been fixed by the Indians?

They flew the Tejas in 2001 and it still hasn't entered service, I doubt any Indian defense politico would back their own capability. They have lost 6 x Su-30MKI in peacetime ops...

Incapable of decent manufacturing for some reason. When I were buying castings I was in discussions with Westalnd, Westland off-shored all their castings to India saving millions, by the time I had plagiarized their business case, they brought all the tools back, less than a year later at great cost as they had to pay for them all to have FAI. The Indians couldnt even make castings from decent Sheffield tooling.

They just built and launched their own aircraft carrier if I am not mistaken. Their second nuclear submarine is about to be launched. Heck, they are building direct energy weapons. Your castings had something to do with that specific company maybe. Choosing the cheapest company usually has a price attached to it.

Seems like their navy is doing much better than their airforce. I guess giving it some time would improve their aircraft manufacturing skills. No one can master technology overnight I guess.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Apparently, the Indians are saying the negotiations have picked up pace again with the new Russian offer.

Upon reflection, this almost seems like a poison pill: the Russians just provide prototypes and leave the Indians to figure out the manufacturing. Given the Tejas experience...