Immigrartion Arguments

Immigration is a pretty big social issue right now. My post is to get input from both sides. One side says illegal aliens are here and they got here by breaking the law, theyre a huge strain on our economy and the right thing to do is mass deportation.

The other side sees them as undocumented workers having great value to our country if we can make them citizens. In doing so we save money versus mass deportation and boost the economy with new taxes being payed in.

One side says they broke the law and no matter their circumstances they must go. The other side sees citizenship for those here that qualify as a more humane approach, avoiding breaking up families and rounding them up like cattle.

Im trying to see both sides of the argument here. Thank you for input.

The problem i have with immigration here in the UK is that the immigrants get more welfare and entitlements than our own people do. They get jumped to the top of housing lists above and prioritised over people that are british born and raised and have been on the list for years. The immigrants are housed and offered more help than our own british homeless. The immigrants have took over the food banks prioritisation, ie i seen lots of immigrants getting given lots of bags of food at a food bank in the street, and as i walked up the street i seen immigrants throwing food away on the floor that they didnt like, and i mean littering ungratefully and wasting food!!! I cant stand them, they hate us british and the whole western world for that matter, and they spit and swear in the street and demnd their rights everywhere they go. These ungrateful pieces of #### can be violent and aggressive when begging which ive also witnessed aswell as seeing them be allowed to fish and basicly poach the fish!! I say get rid of them all, their not here to WORK and pay taxes, their here to bring this country to its knees and get whatever freebies are given them!! All of this ive witnessed and seen with my own eyes and it makes me sick when their are genuine people in need and would actually SHOW the appreciation for the help.

a reply to: Gumerk

They broke the law yes...

Doesn't mean we need to tear families apart.

I would give all illegal's 60 days to report their name and address to the Post Office.

I would get accurate stats on the immigration numbers.

I personally would not kick them out, some would.

However, if you are a violent felon...Your a$$ would be on the next plane to Mexico City.

a reply to: Gumerk

I hope this thread takes off because I would be interested in hearing both sides of the argument as well.

Why would one country be held to standards other countries don't maintain?
Should we not expect the same blind eye welcome in their countries?

I have no issue with immigration.
Sign up on your way in with fingerprints and photos.
be given proper documentation.
break the rules and you and your dependents are deported permanently.

originally posted by: Gumerk
Im trying to see both sides of the argument here. Thank you for input.

Hmmm...I think that you have fallen for the two-sided fallacy that politicians and the media present as being the average American's view on the subject.

See, we have a legal way to enter this country--what some would call an already-existing "path to citizenship." Now, we all know how cumbersome the process is, how heavily burdensome the bureaucracy is, how long it can take, how much it can cost, etc. But, here's my take on the whole thing--if becoming an American is something that you truly desire and have respect for, you will go through the motions to get it.

What you don't do--assuming you really want to integrate into American society and have respect for the freedoms and opportunities that are inherent with being an American--is skip the line, spit in the face of all who are doing it legally, and then break the law and come in on your own terms.

See, with me, it's a respect thing more than it is about breaking the law. America wants immigrants who want to be American, but what we don't want are people who could care less about being American and care more about leeching off of the system in illegal ways.

Playing the emotion card (also know as the appeal-to-emotion logical fallacy) that happens in the media is a thinly veiled attempt to belittle the reality that illegal immigrants, for the most part, don't want to be Americans.

And I'm not even getting into the negative economic impact illegal immigration has on our nation, especially in border states, or the addition to crime that happens with some of them, or, quite honestly, the ability for business owners to exploit human beings that comes along with illegal immigration.

With me, and for many others, it boils down to people who either respect our country and becoming a part of it, or they don't. I think that an appropriate fix would be to streamline the red tape involved in legal immigration, as that is a very, very tough process to see through to the end. But that only fixes the future.

As for the current solution to those already here--I'm not qualified to make that determination, but I will say that I don't think a blanket deportation program (which would be impossible to implement, since we don't know who is here or where most of them are) nor a blanket amnesty program is the appropriate solution. It's somewhere in the between.

If you want to face same chaos EU has be my guest. I hope you take some of ours too.. quite many actually.


Professor explains why immigration doesn´t work.

What is really needed to be done is to help people in their own countries, not by bringing them here. But if the TPTB are towards NWO .. Chaos is a tool to take off our rights and our values, take us down economically.. EU is already facing it

there is nothing wrong with immigration in itself. but you want the right people to come into the country not the wrong ones.

legal or illegal.

why dont we start doing a better job of finding out where people are location wise and seeing if they are acting like actual good deserving citizens? if not then thats what prison is for.

no wall. no deportation. none of that.

just monitor and deal with accordingly.

a reply to: dollukka

That video is focused on a very specific topic, immigration to reduce world poverty. It is right but does it really have anything to do with the OP?

And nobody "takes" them to first world countries. People choose to go.

a reply to: daskakik

You should realize there are those who are after welfare and life style, many of them has their wallets full of money.. they are not those poor ones. Those people should stay and make their country better. And there are real asylum seekers but those are the ones who are still located in southern EU and many are in camps in Turkey etc, these people do not have money to go North and find asylum, their situation is terrible.
There is huge mass immigration going on... but these have had it better off than those poor ones who are still stuck in camps. Not everything is what it looks like.

originally posted by: dollukka
There is huge mass immigration going on... but these have had it better off than those poor ones who are still stuck in camps. Not everything is what it looks like.

I do realize that but that doesn't have anything to do with what I pointed out about the video or about them choosing to immigrate.

Would a mass deportation not cost far too much money and be virtually impossible? Would it not be a better route money wise to offer them a path to citizenship already here and have them paying taxes, with not breaking up their families a plus too?

Is there no middle ground, is it mass deportation or mass amnesty? The undocumented workers that are already here "I think it's estimated at 11 million?" if we give them citizenship does that mean more payed taxes into the economy or are they already paying some taxes?

What about the one's who are here and making money but sending it back to their home country, surely that hurts us yes?

Some say their breaking the law should not be forgiven when actual citizens are not forgiven. They would argue that when a citizen breaks the law, if the penalty is such they will go to prison, regardless of family members, moms, kids, dads, etc. So they don't see it as breaking up families.

Some would argue that the two aren't really comparable. One scenario the person goes to prison in the United States with a chance of rehabilitation "barely" and the other gets deported out of the country leaving their children behind with no way to reasonably get back into the country and be with their families.

originally posted by: Gumerk
Would a mass deportation not cost far too much money and be virtually impossible? Would it not be a better route money wise to offer them a path to citizenship already here and have them paying taxes, with not breaking up their families a plus too?

If the goal is cheap labor or people working with stolen IDs paying taxes and not claiming anything then you don't want to deport them or give them citizenship. Tinfoil cap time.

Is there no middle ground, is it mass deportation or mass amnesty? The undocumented workers that are already here "I think it's estimated at 11 million?" if we give them citizenship does that mean more payed taxes into the economy or are they already paying some taxes?

Many do end up getting their situation straightened out in time.

What about the one's who are here and making money but sending it back to their home country, surely that hurts us yes?

This gets brought up a lot but if an american went to work in another country wouldn't you expect him to take his money home?

Besides the amount of wealth created by a worker is more than what he gets paid. Factor in what they spend in the US and the amount that get's sent home is probably less than the benefit to the GDP.

Some say their breaking the law should not be forgiven when actual citizens are not forgiven.

Actually, immigration law is civil law and not criminal law.

ETA: Deportation is not punishment. Also, if someone decides that their family will remain in the US while they live in another country then, they probably have a good reason and shouldn't complain about it.

Sending their money back to their mother country does seem to hurt our economy, but...In addition to the consumer spending of immigrant households, immigrants and their businesses still contribute tax revenue to U.S. federal, state, and local governments.

But I would be a hypocrite to acknowledge the super rich send their money overseas to avoid taxes and not acknowledge this as well -- it seems to be a problem. So what can we do about it, higher fees for sending money overseas, a special tax just on the money sent abroad? I'm not sure yet what the answer is there.

When we talk about how they broke the law, we have to remember that this is a civil offense, and not criminal. Violations of less serious laws are usually “civil” matters and are tried in civil courts. People accused of crimes are tried in criminal courts and can be imprisoned. Federal immigration law says that unlawful presence in the country is a civil offense and is therefore not a crime. The punishment is deportation.

So, I'm not convinced we can argue a US citizen could commit a civil offense and the penalty involve being torn apart from their families, much less being forced to leave the country. No, it's civil -- so the penalty would not be such they would go to prison. So to contrast we would say actual US citizens don't get away with jaywalking or failure to feed a parking meter versus undocumented immigrants should not get away with unlawful presence in the US.

We cannot assume that all immigrants who are in the United States without legal status must have committed improper entry, this simply isn't the case. Many foreign nationals legally enter the country on a valid work or travel visa, but fail to exit before their visa expires for a variety of reasons. But mere unlawful presence in the country is not a crime.

Undocumented immigrants are already U.S. taxpayers. Collectively, they paid an estimated $10.6 billion to state and local taxes in 2010, according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP), a research organization that works on tax policy issues. Contributions varied by state. IRS figures show that 50% to 75% of the about 11 million unauthorized U.S. immigrants file and pay income taxes each year.

ITEP estimates that allowing certain immigrants to stay in the country and work legally would boost state and local tax contributions by $2 billion a year. Listen, the immigration system is broken, the dye has been cast, and this is where we're at. The system needs overhauling asap, but in my opinion a mass deportation and erecting a wall is not the answer, the costs outweigh the benefits, it's virtually impossible, will cause civil unrest, and is inhumane.

I respect anyone's stance on the issue, have tried to "mentally" put myself in their shoes, and agree to disagree with them "on not all but most of their views on our current immigration situation." Whatever the outcome, I hope it's a realistic one that we can move forward from and become wiser because of