The Beginning of Socialism

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Vector99

originally posted by: crazyewok


The problem in 1776 was the British were just not following it!

That comment seems to remind me of something relevant in modern times. Got any idea of a new land we can sail to and start anew ^_^

The moon ?

Well call me Willyzx and put me on a Mexican rocket

a reply to: Semicollegiate

If you are going to talk about the beginning of Socialism, you should maybe start with its roots in ancient history. Namely Rome, Greek city states, etc.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

None of those were socialist societies. They were republic (Rome) and democratic (Greek) societies , where the heck did you get socialism from those societies?

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: Krazysh0t

None of those were socialist societies. They were republic (Rome) and democratic (Greek) societies , where the heck did you get socialism from those societies?

I didn't say they were Socialist; I said the roots of Socialism can be traced to those governments.

originally posted by: Azureblue

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
The Beginning of Socialism

At the end of the 19th Century, also known as the 1800's, the individual in every country possessed the money and intellect to be become the master of his own fate.

few.

At the end of the 19th Century, also known as the 1800's, the individual in every country possessed the money and intellect to be become the master of his own fate.

A very big statement to make???

As big as the Industrial Revolution, the Renaissance, and the Rights of Man.

I wonder what evidence exists to prove that no people of low IQ, people who were 'fringe people' people who for so long as they had their family around them they are OK but left alone in the world, they would not be able to fend for themselves.

No one does well left alone in the world. Individuality is enabled by a diverse, complex, and impartial market economy. Charity has always received more money when gov has demanded less taxes.

Might it be based on "because I did'nt know about it, therefore it didin't exist' type thinking.




Perhaps its just a convienient truth.

Im not sure what drives this 'welfare for individuals is bad'

Transfer payments do not promote the genuine welfare. "Welfare" is propaganda. The poverty rate decreased every year until "Welfare" started. Since "Welfare" began, poverty has increased, mostly due to the economics of guns and butter, but "Welfare" clouds the issue and "Welfare" is used to justify increased State power and control over all human life.

but if people who are anti welfare for individuals only knew that if banks can create money out of thin air so can goverment and create all the money required in the economy, including incomes for all, just by reserving for the people of the nation, through themselves, the power to create credit outa thin air just like the banks do.

I often wonder if people who are anti welfare for individuals are just as anti corporate welfare, that is, even if they are aware of its existence which I doubt because the man and the lady on the TV dont talk about corporate welfare do they?

The Welfare system is part of the Welfare Warfare package deal of modern government. As is the waste of time mainstream media and crony banker capitalism.

Socialism centralizes and sustains power in the hands of the fewest and makes all of the cronyism easier.

The cronies made socialism. Socialism is a con.

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: Krazysh0t

None of those were socialist societies. They were republic (Rome) and democratic (Greek) societies , where the heck did you get socialism from those societies?

I have to agree with Kraztshot here, the thread title is "The Begginings of Socialism"

Given that this is in the History forums and the use of the word "begginings" one would expect this to start at the beginning and not start at a much later date.

A quick google search brings up many pages that cite early civilisations as having socialist elements in there culture.

Example

Exerpt:

"The origins of socialism as a political movement lie in the Industrial Revolution. Its intellectual roots, however, reach back almost as far as recorded thought—even as far as Moses, according to one history of the subject. Socialist or communist ideas certainly play an important part in the ideas of the ancient Greek philosopher Plato, whose Republic depicts an austere society in which men and women of the “guardian” class share with each other not only their few material goods but also their spouses and children. Early Christian communities also practiced the sharing of goods and labour, a simple form of socialism subsequently followed in certain forms of monasticism. Several monastic orders continue these practices today.

Christianity and Platonism were combined in More’s Utopia, which apparently recommends communal ownership as a way of controlling the sins of pride, envy, and greed. Land and houses are common property on More’s imaginary island of Utopia, where everyone works for at least two years on the communal farms and people change houses every 10 years so that no one develops pride of possession. Money has been abolished, and people are free to take what they need from common storehouses. All the Utopians live simply, moreover, so that they are able to meet their needs with only a few hours of work a day, leaving the rest for leisure."

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Semicollegiate
The late 1800's was a time of plenty? The long depression just didn't happen then?

Depression is a reduction in the dollar amount of goods produced. When a dollar buys more goods from year to year, as in deflation, then the dollar amount of total production goods is reduced -- which looks like a depression. But the consumers are getting as much or more than ever because prices are falling.

The 1893 Panic was a real economic dislocation. The rest of the long depression is Fed central banker and gov collectivist regulator propaganda.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: Krazysh0t

None of those were socialist societies. They were republic (Rome) and democratic (Greek) societies , where the heck did you get socialism from those societies?

I didn't say they were Socialist; I said the roots of Socialism can be traced to those governments.

How so? They weren't socialist governments, you said that yourself. How can socialism be traced to them?

a reply to: nonspecific

Along those lines, any country that provides welfare is a socialist state then.

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: nonspecific

Along those lines, any country that provides welfare is a socialist state then.

You seem to be confusing socialist ideology and practice with a socialist state.

The UK for example has many socialist systems in place, nationalised health care is the most obvious one.

It is however contrary to world opinion not a socialist state but a combination socialism and capitalism.

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: Krazysh0t

None of those were socialist societies. They were republic (Rome) and democratic (Greek) societies , where the heck did you get socialism from those societies?

I have to agree with Kraztshot here, the thread title is "The Begginings of Socialism"

Given that this is in the History forums and the use of the word "begginings" one would expect this to start at the beginning and not start at a much later date.

A quick google search brings up many pages that cite early civilisations as having socialist elements in there culture.

Example

Exerpt:

"The origins of socialism as a political movement lie in the Industrial Revolution. Its intellectual roots, however, reach back almost as far as recorded thought—even as far as Moses, according to one history of the subject. Socialist or communist ideas certainly play an important part in the ideas of the ancient Greek philosopher Plato, whose Republic depicts an austere society in which men and women of the “guardian” class share with each other not only their few material goods but also their spouses and children. Early Christian communities also practiced the sharing of goods and labour, a simple form of socialism subsequently followed in certain forms of monasticism. Several monastic orders continue these practices today.

Christianity and Platonism were combined in More’s Utopia, which apparently recommends communal ownership as a way of controlling the sins of pride, envy, and greed. Land and houses are common property on More’s imaginary island of Utopia, where everyone works for at least two years on the communal farms and people change houses every 10 years so that no one develops pride of possession. Money has been abolished, and people are free to take what they need from common storehouses. All the Utopians live simply, moreover, so that they are able to meet their needs with only a few hours of work a day, leaving the rest for leisure."

There was no actual peace time socialism until Bismarck claimed pensions to be the duty of the State. Then there was Socialism for the first time. As in the beginning of Socialism.

originally posted by: Vector99

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: Krazysh0t

None of those were socialist societies. They were republic (Rome) and democratic (Greek) societies , where the heck did you get socialism from those societies?

I didn't say they were Socialist; I said the roots of Socialism can be traced to those governments.

How so? They weren't socialist governments, you said that yourself. How can socialism be traced to them?

Because that is how you do history. You look where the origins for major ideas begin then piece together the various things that built on them throughout the ages that resulted in coalescing into the idea you are eventually trying to present. Ideas don't just spontaneously pop out of people's minds. People take inspiration from prior thinking to build on and develop their new ideas. If you want to thoroughly understand a concept, and especially when discussing something's beginnings, you should discuss the things that led to your subject's creation.

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: nonspecific

Along those lines, any country that provides welfare is a socialist state then.

You seem to be confusing socialist ideology and practice with a socialist state.

The UK for example has many socialist systems in place, nationalised health care is the most obvious one.

It is however contrary to world opinion not a socialist state but a combination socialism and capitalism.

No I'm not. I'm not linking anything Krazy said to the roots of socialism. It's the basis our current governments are modeled on. So either our current governments are socialists, or there is no merit in saying Greek and Roman cultures were the beginning of socialism. There is no in between.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Then we live in a socialist society right now.

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Then we live in a socialist society right now.

We live in a Democratic Socialist society actually.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

No it's actually a constitutional republic but hey we all have our own ideas right?

I believe the French revolution was the true
Beginning of socialism
Because Carl Marx ideas were inspired
By the French revolution
Thus communism was born
And the decline of the monarchy
And socialism spread to other European
Counties
A stepping stone to communism is
Democracy
I am watching America slowly turn
Into a communist nation
Same thing is happening here in Australia

We need to return to the monarchy
Democracy was a bad path to choose

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: Krazysh0t

No it's actually a constitutional republic but hey we all have our own ideas right?

Constitutional Republic is the form of governance of our government. Democratic Socialist is the type of society we live in.

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: Krazysh0t

No it's actually a constitutional republic but hey we all have our own ideas right?

We live in a country that has a constitutional republic that oversees democratic socialist policies....

Structure of government and what the government does in action aren't the same thing. The structure does not dictate how the government sets policy, or what policies exactly it does enact.

Nowhere does it say that a "constitutional republic" doesn't include strong social contracts that provide for maximum benefit of the people.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

True China this minute a communist state with a capitalist economy .