12.05 BREAKING NEWS: Turkey Detains 4 Russian Ships in Black Sea

originally posted by: WeRpeons
a reply to: asen_y2k

Whether it's just cargo ships, it's clearly a way to antagonize each country to take the next step toward a military confrontation. Russia has every right to be pissed off at Turkey for killing a pilot who was vulnerable with no ability to defend himself. Turkey needs to back-off for the sake of creating a major powder keg in the middle east.

Turkey warned Russia not to violate its airspace. Russia violated Turkey's airspace, so Turkey had no choice.

ETA: I have been checking the newswires. Still no verification, but, by all means, continue arguing over who is right and who is wrong.

originally posted by: nwtrucker

So Turkey should be kicked out of NATO?

If they dont sort there house out yes!

originally posted by: nwtrucker
Last time I checked, we are at war. Have been for a while now.

With ISIS not Russia. ISIS which turkey seem to be at least indirectly supporting.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
A line in the sand is needed, here. Turkish airspace is Turkey's business.

Yeah sure and let Turkey deal with it.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
NATO isn't a lock-step empire...no matter how the anti-Americans like to paint it.

And that why NATO needs disbanding and a new treaty forming or at least reforming. NATO set the bar low it seems for membership.
I would scrap NATO and replace it by a new Alliance between only country’s that share close values IE USA/UK/France/Germany/Japan/South Korea/Canada/Australia/New Zealand/Norway/Finland/Sweden/Denmark/Poland/Netherlands/Italy and Belgium. Least we can all trust each other and shares very close ties culturally, Government wise and Military.

All this turkey and russia news. While syria is getting decimated

originally posted by: nwtrucker

Kick Turkey out??? Disband NATO altogether.It will be a useless organization....

Yes Disband it and replace it with a new treaty with high standards of membership.


Rather the UK has a mutal defence treaty with Japan and South Korea than with Turkey and other corrupt states.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Mahir Zeynalov Retweeted

Telegraph News ‏@TelegraphNews 23h23 hours ago

Germany 'draws up plans to prevent sharing intelligence' with Nato ally Turkey

www.telegraph.co.uk... m_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter …

a reply to: crazyewok

Dutch far-right leader Wilders tells Turks: 'You will never join EU' reut.rs...

originally posted by: WeRpeons
a reply to: asen_y2k

Whether it's just cargo ships, it's clearly a way to antagonize each country to take the next step toward a military confrontation. Russia has every right to be pissed off at Turkey for killing a pilot who was vulnerable with no ability to defend himself. Turkey needs to back-off for the sake of creating a major powder keg in the middle east.

This is what concerns me. That this situation will escalate and escalate until there is an all out WAR.

originally posted by: crazyewok
FFS. What the hell is Turkey thinking?

Poke the bear and get us all killed why don’t you?

Chuck these loose cannons out of NATO!


Of course ATS resident shill will be along soon to tell us we should all back Turkey to the bitter end even if it means all our deaths.......

CNN Breaking News ‏@cnnbrk Dec 3
Turkey will regret last week's downing of a Russian warplane "for a long time," Putin says. cnn.it...

a reply to: nwtrucker
I don't think Putin does want war. If he was eager for war, he would have reacted more quickly and violently.
He just wants to push his luck to gain as much advantage as possible without war.

Turkey is not the right place to draw the line, because Turkey is not being attacked. Turkish ventures outside Turkey are being attacked, which is not the same thing. It's a murky situation with no clear case for mutual defence.
In fact if Turkey deliberately provoked Russia into war to the point of drawing an attack upon themselves, that would not be a clear case for NATO support either. That would be an abuse of their NATO membership rights, and NATO would be within their rights and well-advised to refuse to be drawn in.

It also seems, as far as I can gather, that Turkey's involvement in this area is in conflict with our own interest in overcoming ISIS. So a war against Russia for the sake of protecting that involvement would certainly be the wrong war to fight.

a reply to: nwtrucker

So Turkey should be kicked out of NATO?

Because they are trouble makers that supports ISIS.

Last time I checked, we are at war. Have been for a while now.

When did the war against Russia start? I thought we were supposed to be killing terrorist.

A line in the sand is needed, here. Turkish airspace is Turkey's business.

The Black Sea is not Turkey's airspace nor does it belong to Turkey it is bordered by many nations including Russia.

Who's pushing the envelope here?

Seeing how Turkey shot down a Russian jet instead of contacting Russia like any other nation would do Turkey is the one pushing the envelope here.

NATO isn't a lock-step empire...no matter how the anti-Americans like to paint it

You need to learn a little something about NATO.
Collective defence - Article 5

The principle of collective defence is at the very heart of NATO’s founding treaty. It remains a unique and enduring principle that binds its members together, committing them to protect each other and setting a spirit of solidarity within the Alliance.

An attack against one NATO member is seen as an attack on all members

a reply to: DISRAELI

One can only hope that cooler heads will prevail...

a reply to: buckwhizzle
They might when somebody pours an ice-bucket over Erdogan.
Agenda for the next heads-of-NATO meeting.

I'm not sure this is any kind of substantial fact, or at least I hope so.
It isn't even close to be a black sea blockade and seems the expectable retaliation in a skirmish between those two countries.

a reply to: buster2010

You should research the data before commenting. Turkey has given repeated warning to Russia re: airspace warnings.

Russia embargos Turkey ....Turkey responded. How dare they?

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: nwtrucker

So Turkey should be kicked out of NATO?

Because they are trouble makers that supports ISIS.

Last time I checked, we are at war. Have been for a while now.

When did the war against Russia start? I thought we were supposed to be killing terrorist.

A line in the sand is needed, here. Turkish airspace is Turkey's business.

The Black Sea is not Turkey's airspace nor does it belong to Turkey it is bordered by many nations including Russia.

Who's pushing the envelope here?

Seeing how Turkey shot down a Russian jet instead of contacting Russia like any other nation would do Turkey is the one pushing the envelope here.

NATO isn't a lock-step empire...no matter how the anti-Americans like to paint it

You need to learn a little something about NATO.
Collective defence - Article 5

The principle of collective defence is at the very heart of NATO’s founding treaty. It remains a unique and enduring principle that binds its members together, committing them to protect each other and setting a spirit of solidarity within the Alliance.

An attack against one NATO member is seen as an attack on all members

I agree Re NATO. You should keep that in mind.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: nwtrucker
I don't think Putin does want war. If he was eager for war, he would have reacted more quickly and violently.
He just wants to push his luck to gain as much advantage as possible without war.

Turkey is not the right place to draw the line, because Turkey is not being attacked. Turkish ventures outside Turkey are being attacked, which is not the same thing. It's a murky situation with no clear case for mutual defence.
In fact if Turkey deliberately provoked Russia into war to the point of drawing an attack upon themselves, that would not be a clear case for NATO support either. That would be an abuse of their NATO membership rights, and NATO would be within their rights and well-advised to refuse to be drawn in.

It also seems, as far as I can gather, that Turkey's involvement in this area is in conflict with our own interest in overcoming ISIS. So a war against Russia for the sake of protecting that involvement would certainly be the wrong war to fight.

I'm inclined to agree Putin doesn't want war...I, however, wouldn't bet the bank on it. So far, there's been no need, he has taken everything he's wanted without serious reprisal or consequence...other than oil prices.

No question Turkey- at least up to now- has conflicting interests in the ME.. What country involved doesn't???

NATO wouldn't be within it's rights not to be 'drawn in'. It's a charter obligation....

I say again. draw the line. Putin either honors it or he doesn't. The same options lay in the future in some other confrontation with Russia, he backs down or he doesn't. This time with S400s...later? how much more entrenched?

originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: Bovah2

Good I hope this kickstarts a war.

SERIOUSLY!?

Keep looking out your window and if you see a Really bright light, you'll know your wish came true.
You also have about 3 seconds to kiss your ass goodbye.

War doesn't guarantee nuclear bombs and missiles.

Turkey warned Russia not to violate its airspace. Russia violated Turkey's airspace, so Turkey had no choice.

a reply to: DJW001

For the small amount of time Russia was in their air space they could have escorted the plane out. I know Russia has invaded many NATO air spaces without incident, so it seems like Turkey had an underlying reason to shoot the plane down. Shooting a military plane down is bad enough, but to than shoot and kill the pilot instead of capturing him is overkill and dirty in my opinion. The plane can be replaced, but a human life can't.

a reply to: nwtrucker
I don't know the fine print of the charter, but I hope there would be something in it to cover the case of a "rogue" member deliberately setting out to create a war situation. Leaving themslves vulnerable to that exploitation would have been a criminal mistake on the part of the founders.
Falling into an Erdogan trap would be a criminal mistake too. Perhaps it's time for another 1756, another "renversement des alliances".

3 ships were released,

one still in detention.