Is Russia Going Rogue?

a reply to: payta

I'm pretty sure everyone has already seen the pictures Russia has released as evidence of Turkey's financial support of ISIS.

Russia has released pictures of tanker trucks entering Turkey; they have not shown where the money is coming from. The border guards have been bought off. Where is that money coming from? Tankers are using Turkish ports. Where is that money coming from. Exporters are buying the crude. Where is that money coming from? Russia needs to expose the middle men. Russia needs to follow the money, not the trucks.

Things have been escalating since the downing of the SU-24, when I first heard of that I knew Turkey had messed up big time, Putin is no Obama he wasn't going to chicken out. And he certainly hasn't, the recent measures taken prove that.
I wondered how far he would be ready to go, and the press conference given today by russians official answered that in a way, it surprised me indeed, I mean I knew Russia wasn't going to back down, but the release of this sort of information shocked me.

Putin had to launch a smear campaign against Erdogan because he knows Russia cannot defeat Turkey militarily. If he has hard evidence, he should present it at the UN and call for a vote of censure. He should then expose the middle-men and have them tried in a piracy court. (They falsify manifests.)

I'm pretty sure this is not something new for the world leaders, but political correctness prevents this kind of things of reaching the MSM, Putin though is now willing to go on an all out war (metaphorically speaking so far) against Turkey, USA and their allies. Take 911 for example, Russia could probably show some evidence to stir up controversy shedding some light on the matter, but they dont do that out of political correctness, however it seems things are changing, at least that's what it looks like to me.

If Putin had incriminating evidence about 9/11, don't you think he would have used it by now.

Is Russia going rogue? Will they start exposing more information like this, the kind that governments usually keep to themselves?

That's not going rogue, that's engaging in an "information war." Every nation does it when it can. If necessary, they make things up.

IMO Putin feels he has been betrayed and hates being teased and toyed by a turkish Putin copycat. He is smart enough not to attack turkey directly, but is going to do whatever it takes to lure turkey into war, cause in the end he wouldn't mind nuking Ankara.

I seriously hope you do not believe this. Nuclear escalation would destroy Russia, perhaps even the whole world if the rumors about "Dead Hand" are true.

So, what do you think, will Russia stop playing by the book?

They would have to start playing by the book first. I'll spare you the litany of apartment bombings, Georgia, Crimea, etc.

a reply to: gimphnoid

We will soon have four NATO members in total, UK, France, US, and Turkey,

The term NATO is always used in MSM or can be used to obfuscate the real meaning as to what is really happening . Had Russia really been a threat on the shoot down ,I am sure we would have seen the NATO spokes people rushing to the mike to claim they shot it down . When you are selling a idea like NATO then your potential customers want to see the goods . It also helps sell fear to the present members that might start having second thoughts of the origination .

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: payta

I seriously hope you do not believe this. Nuclear escalation would destroy Russia, perhaps even the whole world if the rumors about "Dead Hand" are true.

First of all, Russia has enough weapons to destroy the world several times over ... so, NATO (apart from the US) threatening Russia, directly or indirectly ... is NATO gone rogue. Claiming Britain has nukes and France too, is not really an argument ... their weapons are insignificant. And their Geo layout is also a vulnerability.

They would have to start playing by the book first. I'll spare you the litany of apartment bombings, Georgia, Crimea, etc.

When is that not playing by the book? You shoot the enemy where he is, that includes enemy combatants hiding behind a hospital hoping you'll not shoot back, because it's a hospital they're shooting from.

If I recall correctly, in the old days you had "sanctuary" in a church ... but required you to lay down your arms. Using a hospital as a cover, while shooting ... does not give you "sanctuary".

If Turkey didn't shoot down their jet, Putin would not have released this information to the world. If you are doing something wrong, why would you do something so stupid as to piss off someone who can prove you are doing it. The actions of Turkey's president and family should not be used to judge the regular citizens of Turkey, they should just make their president resign like he said he would if caught. Then they should throw him and his son into jail there.

If you are doing something wrong, do not start pissing off others who have evidence of your wrongdoing.

a reply to: rickymouse

Sounds like standard - middle eastern despot plot loss ... ( MEDPL ).

Popcorn ... ?

a reply to: bjarneorn

First of all, Russia has enough weapons to destroy the world several times over ... so, NATO (apart from the US) threatening Russia, directly or indirectly ... is NATO gone rogue. Claiming Britain has nukes and France too, is not really an argument ... their weapons are insignificant. And their Geo layout is also a vulnerability.

NATO is not threatening Russia with nukes, payta is hoping that Putin uses nukes against a nation that is a member of NATO. That will lead to an automatic reprisal and the destruction of Russia. I assume no-one really cares if the rest of the world is destroyed. Can we agree that it is payts who is going rogue?

When is that not playing by the book? You shoot the enemy where he is, that includes enemy combatants hiding behind a hospital hoping you'll not shoot back, because it's a hospital they're shooting from.

So you were okay with the United States destroying the MSF hospital in Afghanistan? (Actually, I just checked. You were. Have a star for lack of hypocrisy! )

a reply to: rickymouse

If you are doing something wrong, do not start pissing off others who have evidence of your wrongdoing.

Perhaps Erdogan's confidence comes from him knowing that Russia does not have the evidence it needs. So far, Russia has not released anything that Erdogan cannot dismiss by saying: "I'm shocked! Shocked! I will form a blue ribbon panel to investigate this immediately."

a reply to: DJW001

Lip service is no longer valid ...

Body count and the make up of such is tantamount .

NATO and the UN need to show us the money - or stop pretending to be the ultra-fair moderators for the "greater good" ...

Step up now ! The time is nigh !!

* Not holding my breath.

a reply to: Kuroodo

Watched 10 minutes of it. I'll have to find the time to watch the rest. Nice to get another country's perspective!

So far Putin doesn't sound like the bad guy MSN makes him out to be. It's important for citizens of NATO countries to hear Putin's perspective. We can no longer rely on governments and the MSN to give us a true perspective of world events. The internet has literally opened up a doorway of information for people everywhere to find out the TRUE perspective of a country and so called "enemies". We can now research, and talk with people of other nations to get a better understanding on how they view conflicts around the globe.

The building Putin was making his address in was amazing! Almost looked like a church (was it?).

a reply to: WeRpeons

The building Putin was making his address in was amazing! Almost looked like a church (was it?).

It is where Russians go to worship Putin.

a reply to: Timely

NATO and the UN need to show us the money - or stop pretending to be the ultra-fair moderators for the "greater good" ...

Russia needs to show us who is buying the contraband oil.

a reply to: DJW001

Apparently they did.

However - their evidence seems to be attracting many nay-sayers ...

a reply to: DJW001

It is where Russians go to worship Putin.

No wonder why he feels like a God.

Russia is not rogue they are just doing the best they can to dig out of big hole they have put themselves in. With the mess in Ukraine not going anywhere, US/EU sanctions playing havoc on a already weak Russian economy, all of Russia's once loyal allies in the former Soviet Republics after seeing the treatment of Georgia and Ukraine rushing to head to the West or China, with once loyal friends in India, Vietnam, Cuba all turning to the West, And China who Russia had claimed an ally undercutting Russian markets and showing no support Russia needed a distraction fast.

Enter Syria. Assad propped up by Iran and Hezbollah with only the Alawites in Syria supporting him was showing signs of complete collapse. Russia though they could jump in bomb some stuff and Assads forces would advance and score some great victories, Russia could declare victory leaving Assad in a more secure position and go home with a PR victory.

So what went wrong? Everything. Russia did not realize how little support Assad has in Syria and that even the minority Alawites were beginning to desert him. Next seeing how unpopular supporting Assad was among the Russian population, they tried to brand it as not supporting Assad and instead a war on ISIS. This of course fell apart as Russia barely targeted ISIS and instead hit the enemies of ISIS. On top of that Assad came to table with almost nothing. Most of the ground fighting had to be carried by Iran and Hezbollah. While small advances were made here and there, retreats were also playing out. Early on Russia declared victory, ISIS was deserting, they were just days from being defeated etc. Of course none of this was true and as no the entire campaign added up to making almost no change on the ground Russia began looking for a political solution. Courting the Saudis, Turks, and West into a deal hinting they were ready to give up Assad for some Arms deals in Syria. Then ISIS blew up a Russian airliner and Russia had to then go after ISIS. Then after being warned about violating Turkish airspace the Turks finally stuck to their word and shot down a Russian aircraft.

Now Russia had a campaign to prop up Assad going nowhere fast, a war with ISIS it is ill equipped to fight, and a confrontation with Turkey whom it desperately needs for trade and a Syria deal.

So Russia is just trying to come up with anything to save face and get out of Syria. They show oil being smuggled into Turkey and now Turkey will show oil being smuggled into Assads Syria. And in fact it is being smuggled everywhere and no doubt to just about every nation as is the nature of oil smuggling. Russia gets a little bombastic with Turkey but, in the end is stuck only placing some symbolic sanctions on Turkey hoping Turkey sees that they have not gone after anything important and retaliate in a trade war they can not afford.

To make matters worse Crimea is seething in rebellion, Ukraine remains and ulcer in Russia side, the economy remains terrible, the military can not maintain the campaign in Syria, NATO just ignored Russian threats yet again and invited Montenegro to join, and Belarus and the other former Soviet Republics are closer to fleeing than ever. It is not an easy time to be Russia, granted they brought this all on themselves. So rogue no. Desperate yes.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: bjarneorn
So you were okay with the United States destroying the MSF hospital in Afghanistan? (Actually, I just checked. You were. Have a star for lack of hypocrisy!

)

Not ok with it, as much as I understand why. We all know the enemy is using civilians as shield ... same as in Israel.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Kuroodo

This is more appropriate... A Russian dictator giving a speech and how that speech sounds to the Russian people. Example courteous of a Mr. A. Hitler.

We all know how that ended... The same will be true for Putin if he keeps acting NTAC 2.0 compliant.

Actually the Allies wouldn't hold up to their end of the bargain and surrounded Germany. An agreement was made for all powers to disarm, which Germany did ... and while Germany did, the Allies kept on building munitions and bombs and other materials. So Germany did what any country would do ....

History is filled with Hired Bull#.

a reply to: MrSpad

good summary, although I can't say agree with the result there.

Granted, that Ukraine is probably the real issue ... granted that Russia probably went into Syria, more to gain favours, also granted that oil is going into Assads regime, after all it's their oil to begin with ... however, Montenegro is a backwater dirtwater country ... accepting it into NATO is neither necessary, nor pragmatic. Ukraine is also a dirtwater country, and the same applies there when NATO's support is concerned. In both instances NATO is not a "defensive" treaty, but an aggressive one ... it is "expanding". And all logic on expanding nations, is that they're bankrtup, and expand to make up for the economic losses. Same applies to immigration rules across Europe ... Europe's economy is broken, and they're trying to make up for it with immigration (expansion).

This is where you are wrong. NATO is the rogue part, in times where there are no threats ... to nations, and don't say ISIS, as they are a criminal element, not a threat on nation's basis. NATO will also use "flowing into Assad's regime" to hide the fact that European nations, are the biggest buyer.

NATO is the problem, and should be dissolved.

originally posted by: Telos

originally posted by: payta

Is Russia going rogue?

I gotta ask, rogue to whom and rogue according to what?

You're smart enough to answer that yourself.

a reply to: bjarneorn

Montenegro is a backwater dirtwater country .

...with deep water ports on the Aegean. This would be quite a prize for Russia, creating an alternative to the Black Sea ports which are now under threat. NATO is blocking a potential Russian move.

a reply to: MrSpad

I thought the Russians were invited to help in Syria?