De-constructing Canada One Immigrant At A Time

It seems like some new Canadians have decided to abrogate a portion of the Oath of Citizenship. That's a little jarring but even worse, it seems like the Department of Citizenship and Immigration is actually going along with this.

www.thestar.com...

New Canadian renounces allegiance to Queen right after citizenship oath

Dror Bar-Natan, a 49-year-old math professor from Israel, was one of three permanent residents who challenged the constitutionality of making citizenship conditional on the pledge to the Queen, her heirs and successors.

I have nothing against immigrants. Canada is made of immigrants, whether they came four days ago or forty thousand years ago. Nobody started from scratch on the virgin soil of the Americas.

In our time, most immigrants are coming to a settled, prosperous, peaceful land, that is seen, for any number of reasons, by them, as being an improvement on the place they came from.

What is this Canada?

Canada is a Constitutional Monarchy governed by a parliamentary system inherited from Great Britain. We are a former Dominion of the British Crown. That seems to embarrass some people, not just confused and muddled new immigrants, but native born Canadians, some of them of long standing eminence.

Canada is a member of the British Commonwealth of Nations, as are numerous former dominions and colonies of the British Crown. We are one big cautiously affectionate family of nations, united by traditions of governance and jurisprudence inherited from Great Britain, the little giant with the guts and brains to dominate, in its day, virtually all of the juicy bits of the world.

Canada, sea to shining sea, is one of those juicy bits and I am not in the least embarrassed by that. I think our tradition is something we should cherish. I think it would be very foolish to begin to start pruning the luxurient growth of this nation at the roots.

I think immigrants who don't want to give an oath of allegiance to the Monarch are immigrants who don't really know where they landed at. Maybe their children will figure it out, if not too much is done to deconstruct this country first.

Seeking immigrants to this country has always been problematic. Every batch of immigrants has its own batch of trouble that it brings along with it, much as our immigrant seeking government might like to paper that fact over.

I want immigrants to come to this country. We, in a much less attractive climate than that of the United States, need immigrants.

But I want them to come to this country, not a country designed by an ever increasing committee of newcomers who left the place they were because they didn't like it there, but want to make this place just like the old place except for what they didn't like about it.

Welcome to the ghetto.

The second and third generation of immigrant families gradually move out of the ghetto into the more homogeneous social mix, but still retain their ethnic loyalties and that is what is called the Canadian mosaic. It is a very natural thing.

It's what happens in the United States too, but there it is overlaid by a lot of jingoistic "America first" nationalism that is so heavy as to be a precursor of a national psychosis of cognitive dissonance.

In America children get named things like George Washington Lincoln Peebles.

I think we should stick to our roots in the British tradition, with appropriate accommodations to the diversity of our ethnic make up and a particular acknowledgement of the contributions of our most important ethnic minority, Franco Canadians.

I don't think new immigrants, or any immigrants, live up to their obligations as citizens by chipping away at the very foundation of the country they chose to come to.

Maybe people don't read history anymore. Maybe they don't know how nations are created. Maybe they believe that they needn't bother anymore with the values of their predecessors.

If so, it is an alarming trend, to me anyway.

a reply to: ipsedixit

We see this sort of thing all over the US and now the agitators are tearing down politically incorrect and/or offensive monuments and even protesting the flying of the flag. Same thing's been happening in the UK where some immigrants profess offense at the sight of the Union Jack.

There's really nothing you can do about it. These immigrants more serve the interests of the governments and the businesses that run the governments than anyone else and the governments/corporations have no care whatsoever about national traditions, or.....you for that matter. Of course.....that'll change in the face of some national emergency when the government suddenly needs your assistance or wants to activate the military draft. In that case, after all this, you might want to tell them to stick it and to go to their valued immigrant class for help.

a reply to: TonyS

I agree. I think there is a concerted effort in most of the developed countries of the world, by democratically elected globalist traitors, to break down the organic unity and traditions of the societies they govern.

It's a huge issue, but as far as the Oath of Citizenship is concerned, I think there should be a quid pro quo for the deletion of clauses of the oath. For example, if a new citizen doesn't want to swear allegiance to the Crown, they should be required to agree to the tattooing of a four inch high letter "F" in black, or purple on their forehead the first time they are convicted of a felony in their new country.

a reply to: ipsedixit

Swearing fealty to a monarch seems antiquated and foolish. I would never swear fealty to anyone. I do see how the trend could be disturbing, but this is one tradition that makes no sense to me as a Libertarian.

a reply to: Metallicus

I think, in an immigrant, the refusal to swear the oath, or the demand that the oath should be changed, is a bad sign.

Do you think that new immigrants to the United States should be exempt from swearing allegiance to the flag and the constitution for which it stands?

a reply to: ipsedixit
Well, I love Canada and Canadians, but I guess my recommendation to you personally would be....don't worry about it. Look at it this way.....none of us are getting out of this alive; before you know it you'll be filler for a pine box and none of any of this will make any difference.

As for Oath taking? Really.....think about it. Most people these days don't have any functioning moral code or subscribe to any ethical compass. Their taking an oath means nothing to them. All they know is what they want and what they want is all they know. Here today, gone tomorrow.

And tomorrow, the sun will still rise in the east and set in the west.

a reply to: ipsedixit

Interesting but not surprising .This act is only one of many smaller moves to bring together the Hegelian dielectric . I just made my first post on ATS and hopefully connecting dots that have been mentioned before . Nothing original in the post but maybe a centre point as to the forces we see occurring in our times . www.abovetopsecret.com... Read or not, contribute or not ....its ATS and here we are ...S&F as always as you bring something to the table of discussion as always ...

originally posted by: ipsedixit
a reply to: Metallicus

I think, in an immigrant, the refusal to swear the oath, or the demand that the oath should be changed, is a bad sign.

Do you think that new immigrants to the United States should be exempt from swearing allegiance to the flag and the constitution for which it stands?

What does it mean to "swear allegiance" to the flag & Constitution? I don't mean simply "saying an oath". I mean, actually swearing loyalty to them. What does that entitle? I can see a public official or government worker having to swear an oath to uphold the laws in the Constitution. But that's because they're placed in positions of public trust & are literally acting as the representatives of the government.

But why should normal citizens? I don't swear any allegiance to the flag or Constitution. Why should I? The flag is cloth; it literally can't do anything to me, for me, or against me. And it's changed every time we've added a new State. And the Constitution is a living document. It was specifically made with a method to alter/"amend" it because its writer's knew it wasn't perfect. So what does it even mean for normal citizens to swear allegiance to it? That's just weird.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Are you an immigrant?

Would you take in a border into your house who made it clear from the outset that you and he had fundamental differences of opinion?

a reply to: TonyS

Everything you said is true and if everyone did as you suggest we would be overrun with field mice in no time.

All borders, flags, languages, beliefs, and all our valueless classifications such as wealth and/or physical attribution, are artificial, and can be changed at our will. I was in the army. I swore an oath to the Queen. But what difference would it make if I secretly had an allegiance to my belief in aliens and the hope they'll come and take me away from us human BOZOS. My actions are the only real true measure. Not the poetry of propaganda.

At this point in history, I feel like peeling off my Citizenship and pledge to give my undying support to the earth worm. We face crisises on the largest of scales. Our immense population is clashing on every front.

And here we are, worried about words.

From this day forth, I will seeking to defend earthworms, and I pledge to compost in reverence.

a reply to: ericblair4891

That's up to you, but let me ask you, were you an immigrant? This is really about a requirement that applies to immigrants. Any number of people don't respect oaths. In the courts there are criminal penalties that cover oath breaking on the witness stand.

Are you suggesting that we not bother with oaths anymore?

Maybe a legal contract could be substituted, which would spell out conditions of citizenship and penalties for failure to adhere to those conditions. Maybe points could be given for different conditions and accumulating a set number of points would do, in place of an oath. I wouldn't necessarily be against that but I don't think citizenship should be handed out automatically on a quota system without some vetting of the prospective citizen.

originally posted by: ipsedixit
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Are you an immigrant?

Would you take in a border into your house who made it clear from the outset that you and he had fundamental differences of opinion?

Huh? What does that have to do with what I asked? Everyone in my family has fundamental differences of opinion of something. Should I kick them out or refuse to let them come in because of that? I'm not an authoritarian so it doesn't really matter to me. You know, the whole "live and let live" thing.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

Huh? What does that have to do with what I asked? Everyone in my family has fundamental differences of opinion of something.

The topic is immigration. We aren't talking about family life around the kitchen table at your house.

Should I kick them out or refuse to let them come in because of that? I'm not an authoritarian so it doesn't really matter to me. You know, the whole "live and let live" thing.

I get the whole "live and let live" thing. I'm not trying to deprive anyone of their life, but a country is like a club with rules. Different countries have different rules and traditions. If someone wants to join the club but doesn't want to respect the rules and traditions, they should join another club.

originally posted by: ipsedixit

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

Huh? What does that have to do with what I asked? Everyone in my family has fundamental differences of opinion of something.

The topic is immigration. We aren't talking about family life around the kitchen table at your house.

Should I kick them out or refuse to let them come in because of that? I'm not an authoritarian so it doesn't really matter to me. You know, the whole "live and let live" thing.

I get the whole "live and let live" thing. I'm not trying to deprive anyone of their life, but a country is like a club with rules. Different countries have different rules and traditions. If someone wants to join the club but doesn't want to respect the rules and traditions, they should join another club.

Those rules are called "laws". As long as people follow the laws of their specific jurisdictions, they're fine. And if they don't, they won't be fine. That doesn't mean they need to swear loyalty to a flag or Constitution, specifically because nearly every law they'd need to follow is not found in the Constitution or somewhere on the flag. Hence, my question of what good swearing loyalty to a flag or constitution would do?

Oh & reread what you asked me.

Would you take in a border into your house who made it clear from the outset that you and he had fundamental differences of opinion?

You asked me a hypothetical question about me allowing someone in my house. So I gave you an example regarding how I actually deal with people in my house. How is that off topic? Get it?

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

Those rules are called "laws". As long as people follow the laws of their specific jurisdictions, they're fine. And if they don't, they won't be fine. That doesn't mean they need to swear loyalty to a flag or Constitution, specifically because nearly every law they'd need to follow is not found in the Constitution or somewhere on the flag.

That is not correct.

www.cic.gc.ca...

A person who has been granted citizenship must take the Oath of Citizenship, in either English or French, or in both languages if they so choose, by swearing or solemnly affirming before a citizenship judge or any person delegated by the Minister’s delegate.

For more information about delegated authorities for citizenship ceremonies, see Legal references related to citizenship: Delegations.

Taking the Oath of Citizenship is the final legal requirement that grant applicants who are 14 years of age or older must meet in order to become Canadian citizens.

You asked me a hypothetical question about me allowing someone in my house. So I gave you an example regarding how I actually deal with people in my house. How is that off topic? Get it?

I was asking you how you would deal with a new stranger, not how you would deal with your family.

As a Canadian, born and raised, I neither bear any ill will toward, nor feel I owe any specific debt to the Queen.

I can understand the reluctance to swear allegiance to the Queen, and even respect that, since if I were given orders by the Queen to march off to war to protect her interests, I'd give her explicit directions of where to go and what to do once she arrived.

I, and the majority of Canadians I think, view the connection with the queen as symbolic at this point. She is as good a face as any to have on the coins, but has no direct impact on the function or direction of our country.

As a natural citizen, where do I have to pledge allegiance to the Queen?

a reply to: CrikeyMagnet

Natural born Canadians don't have to swear an oath of allegiance to the Crown, unless they occupy positions of special responsibility like government members, military personnel and the like.

One thing in favor of those new Canadians who want to renounce their allegiance to the Queen, which does them credit, is the fact that at least they take the oath seriously enough to make an issue of it.

Personally, I object to people who choose this country to live in, but who want to reduce their obligations as citizens because they object to one of the obligations. They want the goodies but don't want all of the responsibilities of citizenship.

I think Canadians who do take those obligations seriously should start to make an issue of this. I think that what we are seeing is a globalist rollover of this country and I don't like it.

The part about the Queen, don't blame them. I renounce any Royalty too as a born Canadian. Such a thing is abhorrent and crimes against all souls, ie slavery.

a reply to: ipsedixit

As an American I don't really understand monarchies and why anyone would want to swear fealty to a royal family, but if it is important to your national identity then I agree that if someone wants to immigrate to Canada they should have to 'do their duty'. I would never take that oath, but I wouldn't want to be Canadian either so that works out well.