Turkey closed the straits of Bosphorus - Russia gives a last chance/warning - Turkey reopens

a reply to: Xcathdra
You have not seen George Bush Sr. New World Order Live Speech nor Gordon Brown New World Order Speech. Most of the world is already ruled by fascists. Elections are a circus performance to fool the sheeple in believing they live in a free democracy. I don't dismiss Putin could be one of their puppets, that's a possibility.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: 2012newstart

Won't happen and it Russia attempted it they would be destroyed.

Russia cannot just be "destroyed" without destruction of USA and West in general. First, for that you need thousands of nukes that USA doesn't have anymore. You have a territory 3 times the territory of USA, cities spread among wilderness. Also you have to count China if USA is to make a first strike. Permieter automatic system of retaliation is being modernized, said a general. Moreover, it is yet not clear the extend of the underground facilities in places one can hardly believe the life is possible at all. Watch RT of Norilsk underground "mining city". And that is just official part. As of the 5000 new bunkers built in Moscow around 2012, again on RT.

On the other hand, the West is pretty vulnerable. Paul Craig Roberts who worked in Reagan's economic team and even made "Reaganomy" term, now says repeatedly online: "we risk too much with all the new tech at the Russian borders. Because only one SS18 to successfully reach the East Coast, anywhere on it, will depopulate it entirely (in the meaning, the survivors will relocate from the irradiated territory)." Without the East (and the West) coasts, USA will turn into a third world country. You can imagine the effects of EMPs from space, and so on. Let alone West Europe that is completely defenseless. Many Western countries will refuse to fight in first place, such as Italy and France, and Spain, and Greece, to name a few.

If a big doom occurs, the life of survivors will be underground for the duration of the nuclear winter. Guess how many nations have that option and how many nations will want to go on a road that leads to that ultimate end. Some within USA may want indeed to sacrifice everything only after generations to be able to prove that Russia started first and is the evil empire, as Reagan said. But not so many of them think in that way, I hope

Saying all that about the big doom scenario that may never happen, we'd rather sit down to discuss the local scenarios. Russia already made enough concessions to the West, including by letting NATO move not only to the ex-Soviet Block of nations (East Europe) but also within the ex-USSR itself. There should be a red line that seems already reached. I will not comment all the situation in Ukraine, it is dynamic.

In the case of Turkey, we have 10-15 Russo-Ottoman wars in 18-19 century that mostly were won by Russia, except for the Crimean war where we had a coalition of Anglo-French forces to help Turkey out.

Whether Turkey will make another gross provocation as the downing jet (you do that if you are at hostile relations with some country, not if you import gas thru pipes under Black Sea!!!) Russia already said what will be the response. If this is a Think Tank center and not necessarily official, the officials already said enough words as "stabbing in the back", (Putin). Medvedev went further to say there were discussions and right of military response, but they decided not to do it anyway. UN charter gives the right of self defense of every country, Russia included.

Recently a Russian jet passed briefly over Israeli controlled territory (they move with supersonic speed and the border is not straight line). Israeli source said, there was nothing dangerous or any need to shoot it down.

So much of the Turkish right to shoot down a plane of a country considered to be "friendly". That plane wasn't there to bomb Turkey, neither Turkey and Russia had any provocations beforehand, any hostilities. It was a sharp turn of Erdogan against a traditional friend if not ally, Putin, despite all economic favors Putin did to a country that belongs to NATO. Surely it cannot be repeated without more serious reaction from Russian side.

There is such a thing as Russian public opinion. Putin would be obliged to act. And he does not act alone. There is the powerful defense minister Shoigu, there is the all-logic Lavrov, there are the leaders of the other political parties: Zyuganov (communists), Zhirinovski (nationalists), Mironov (kind of right-wing socialists). I remember after Kiev how Putin was put to immense pressure by all politicians of all the spectrum in the parliament to act militarily in Ukraine. One may say, Putin still withholds powers in Russia that would be much more assertive towards the West.

About NWO, well that could be discussed endlessly. The fact is Russia under Putin played quite constructive role for the last 16 years. May be too constructive. And the world didn't go towards the promised paradise of before Year 2000, instead marred deeply in economic woes, unemployment, and also terrorists. I don't have the answer, or if I have it I said it in other threads. All powers have off-world partners and that should not be a secret to anyone anymore. Perhaps the big war is postponed if not cancelled because of that. I can't imagine the uneasy status quo of the last decade to be just repeated one decade more. People will riot in a number of Western countries, as they did in London, Madrid, and do now against immigrants.

If there is such a thing as NWO and illuminati control, they have to take into account today's people are much more aware, including of that. There is some invisible red line beyond which the "normal" societies of the West will go wild. Again, I do not have an answer, except for intervention of a new kind, new industrial revolution, that will give everyone regardless of the country, the means of survival and well being, cures of deseases that are theoretically curable but unaffordable for 95% of the Western population. Creation of affordable conditions in the Third World, to stop the insane immigration streams that overflow Europe and USA and that will make those regions no more "Western culture" only 10 years later. What will happen if China and India send tomorrow several hundred million "tourists" half of whom decide to stay. It will be the end of the civilization the way we know it. Without giving a shot.

Let go back to the straights. Constantinople has been Ottoman-Turkish for the last 600 years. But not before that. As we know it is one of the oldest cities in history dating to the time of Constantine. For good or for bad, it is a part of our common Mediterranean/later European history. Ottomans entered into it and remained into it for too long to be considered a factor. But one of the factors only, not the ultimate one. I have nothing against Turkey's population, culture, religion, and so on. They showed they could be civilized many times in history, unlike other Muslim countries.

If there is another provocation, Russia will seek its right of defense and will go beyond destroying one airfield. Turkey is posed for a war. I heard it somewhere that Erdogan said he would invade Russia for 7 days. (Israeli source I think). Well that is pretty crazy. Does he count on the 80 nukes in the US control in Incirlic base? Even though does he realize what it means a war with a nuclear superpower, with unknown number of secret weapons? Turkey will be defeated in weeks. The straights are the first point of interest of course. NATO intervention? What do you mean - Poland striking Russia in the back? I can't believe it. US if they want a big doom, they have to strike both Russia and China, as already talked.

a reply to: 2012newstart

Yeah Russia wouldn't survive.

Turkey is not what it were 2 decades ago at the end of the Cold War, a country with pro-European values that wants to enter into the European economic space because it feels it belongs to its cultural space.....

The fundamental rulers in the last decade changed its course dramatically. Currently 100s officials have been investigated for supporting the Kurdish movement. There are the Kurd minority, the Greek minority in the West, others.

The Greco-Turk conflicts are also nothing new. How many times the opposing fleets stayed at odds around a rocky uninhabited island where activists changed flags. Turkey does not recognize 12 mile territorial waters around each Greek island, because they were too many. Let alone Cyprus problem.

The conflict between the neighboring Armenia (with Mt Ararat of Noah's time being inside Turkey), and the Turkish-related Azerbaijan, continues for decades since the time of USSR. Armenia has Russian army stationed in it, it is a member of a number of treaties with Russia, and recently united its air defense with the Russian air defense network.


A clash between Russia and Turkey will see the entire region of South East Europe to Asia Minor to the Middle East set aflame. Putin said about Syria - what you see as Russian intervention is not a real war, it is a drill.

Currently, the Russian transports to Syria, warplanes, including strategic bombers, and cruise missiles from ships, surround Turkey from the East - Caspian Sea- Iran - Iraq. The air corridor from the West thru Bulgaria and Greece was allowed by Greece but closed by Bulgaria. I don't know how the cargo to Syria goes thru Mediterranean around Europe, or thru the straights of Istanbul. May be both ways.

In anyway, Turkey may feel surrounded, especially when you have Erdogan as leader of nation that he sees to be stretching historically well over its current borders, in either direction.

NATO help is something virtual. German and Czech delegates refused to support Turkey about the downed plane. German PAK-3 was withdrawn from Turkey-Syria border shortly after. NATO could've kicked out Turkey for a number of trespasses. One of them being the limited deployment in Northern Iraq. It doesn't happen though. I don't see NATO engaged full scale with Russia for Turkey, unless it is a part of a wider plan as described above. But then we go to Apocalyptic scenarios.

a reply to: Xcathdra

LoL - You still peddling that?









Yawn, keep going homie!

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: 2012newstart

Yeah Russia wouldn't survive.

Yoda: "Something more to say you have"?

Seems many American supporters do not listen anymore to reasonable logic, as that of Lavrov for example.
Not all of them though.

Nuland Arrives in Russia's Kaliningrad to Meet With Putin's Aide Surkov
sputniknews.com...

Why, what so urgent to land in Kaliningrad enclave next to Poland, and not to travel to Moscow one hour more? What is it she had to tell the Russians ON THEIR TERRITORY and not by phone/internet/secure connections?
Seems the idea of hawks against bears don't really work. Bears already won the last world war. Why the textbooks and films give only the battles in the Pacific, and rarely, the US victory in North Africa? Who won on the East Front against very well prepared and technically advanced adversary with developed jet engines and rocketry? The Russians, Kazakhs etc nations of former USSR won the war. Without them, the heroism of US sailors and pilots in the Pacific would be baseless. At best US would remain on its island isolated and begging for the benevolence of the German-controlled Europe. Werner von Brown would never immigrate as well. Germans would be first on Moon and probably with the nuke as well. Just imagine a history where you don't have USSR decisive role in 20th century. It wouldn't be a history of US dominance.

Andropov could fire at any moment after the provocative drill Able Archer 1983 www.youtube.com... the worst crisis after the Cuban. You could have irradiated planet but not US hegemony for 26 years, if USSR didn't decide to Perestroika. I wonder what we did with those 26 years. Do the Americans listen to the sane reason anymore, as their predecessors did?

Russia has 1000 years history. I doubt most Americans know the last 100 years of them.
www.youtube.com...

If we count only nukes and things like that, it becomes terrible. The equation is not in favor of America.
Isn't it written in the Bible, when a king with 10,000 sees another king coming with 20,000, wouldn't he send envoys to ask for terms of peace?

a reply to: 2012newstart

Nuland Arrives in Russia's Kaliningrad to Meet With Putin's Aide Surkov
sputniknews.com...

Why, what so urgent to land in Kaliningrad enclave next to Poland, and not to travel to Moscow one hour more?

They are both afraid of assassination. Koenigsburg can be sealed as tight as a drum.

As for Russia v. Turkey, the statistics speak for themselves:

Turkey has 410,000 service men. Russia has 766,000. Russia's problem is that it has 22,000 kilometers of shared borders to defend, whereas Turkey only has 2,800. Not quite twice the troops to defend 10 times the potential battle front. If you were the Russian Ministry of Defense, would you pull troops off the Polish border to fight in Turkey? Russia has 3,400 aircraft compared to Turkey's 1,000. Setting aside the question of which side has better planes, the Russians have three times the aircraft to defend twenty two times the airspace. Again if you were the MoD, would you pull planes out of the Baltic in the hopes that NATO wasn't setting a trap for you?

Full stats here.

Should a state of war be declared, Turkey would close the Bosporus, cutting Crimea off from the Mediterranean. The Russian Black Sea Fleet is comprised of 45 ships and submarines. Turkey's fleet numbers 115, and they would be operating with full air cover, whereas Russia would not.

If you were Vladimir Putin, would you run the risk of a humiliating military defeat by a regional power that did not even need to call on NATO?

Disclosure.

I apologize for cloning this over and over again, but the facts remain the same. Not one Russia booster has refuted them, just ignored them in favor of the belief that Russia could somehow win a nuclear exchange.

a reply to: SurrenderingIsBack

Putin nor Obama will be fighting... The respective military's will be fighting and I say again Russia would be destroyed if Putin pulls another misadventure in attacking Turkey for an action Turkey can lawfully take.

a reply to: 2012newstart

The people she met with are sanctioned meaning essentially they cannot travel to a EU country. Secondly Putin got rid of the unknown negotiators he was using for Ukraine and replaced them with people from his inner circle.

Putin's failure to get the sanctions removed by going into Syria was embarrassing for him. Now that he was forced to admit the sanctions are causing havoc with the Russian economy, after lying by continually claiming they are having no affect, he apparently is going to start taking the minsk agreements seriously.

originally posted by: 2012newstart

originally posted by: intrptr

Bottling up the Russian Black Sea Fleet? People should be aware thats what the control of Ukraine is really Geo-strategically all about about, the Russian fleet based at Sevastopol in the Crimea.

Access to the Mediterranean is key to defending and supplying their bases in Syria. Without passage through the strait from the Black Sea, the Russians have to go all away around through the straits of Gibraltar or the Suez Canal.

Surely an escalation on the part of NATO…

I just read an interview of some Russian think tank,svpressa.ru... he said if Turkey closes the straights, the only move to Russia will be to open them with military means. Practically it means to capture Constantinople that is situated on one of the straights. I can search for that interview, it has pretty strong vocabulary, including a warning of nuclear weapons to be used at Turkey if a nuclear country helps them to fight Russia (90 gravity A-bombs are still stationed in Incirlic US base, some of them may be hydrogen). Another consequence according to that think tank of Russia would be, Russia takes the Baltics.

Yah, NATO badly wants to exclusively control the Mediterranean, what a bummer the Turks are too stupid and or greedy to keep themselves from bang squished in an east west vise.

Can't have it both ways dummies.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Xcathdra

US aims to spread its US Corporatist Fascism throughout the world, not its destruction. So in a game of Russian roulette, US would not risk everything for nothing, and Russia knows it, which is why Russia is in Syria.

Good point. The Bear isn't at all intimidated by a few puny US bases in the region. They have those, and nukes too.

The most 'enlightening' for NATO should have been the cruise missile launches from the Caspian Sea. Some display, rapid fire, hypersonic, gee NATO, wheres your outrage? This could just as easily been nuclear weapons directed at US Fleets and bases in the Gulf, instead of your puny covert insurgency.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Blah Blah, you behave as though the EU and the West (NATO) don't control Gibraltar, Madagascar, Falklands, Suez, Panama, the Gulf(s) and Dardanelles to name a few. The major choke points, narrows, straits and canals for shipping and military passage round the world are firmly in Western hands.

Disingenuously, you pretend they aren't. Vital strategic importance all, and hiding that by saying its up to Turkey to keep the Russians out of the Mediterranean.

Turkey is a tool of NATO, does what its told.

a reply to: intrptr

Yep. If Putin can' t have his way, he will destroy all life on Earth in a nuclear holocaust... And you admire him why?

originally posted by: intrptr
Blah Blah, you behave as though the EU and the West (NATO) don't control

Gibraltar - owned by the UK
Madagascar - Its own country
Falklands - owned by the UK (no matter how much Argentina whines)
Suez - owned by Egypt
Panama - owned by Panama
the Gulf(s) - not sure what your ranting about here.
Dardanelles - owned bu Turkey

If the USSR didn't occupy eastern Europe for 50+ years.. If Russia (Putin) didn't act like a no talent ass clown they might have more friends in the world. Its difficult to respect Putin, a man who thinks he is more important than he actually is. Respect is earned and looking at the way Putin came to power and his stint as President / Prime Minister its obvious he has no clue as to what respect is, let alone the fact its a 2 way road.

The Soviet Union is gone and for good reasons. Putin's arrogance is pushing Russia back down the road that ended the USSR.

Respect is not threats, fear or intimidation. Putin should learn the difference before his actions and mindset destroy Russia.

originally posted by: intrptr
Blah Blah, you behave as though the EU and the West (NATO) don't control Gibraltar, Madagascar, Falklands, Suez, Panama, the Gulf(s) and Dardanelles to name a few. The major choke points, narrows, straits and canals for shipping and military passage round the world are firmly in Western hands.

The question at issue between me and Ploutonas, this time last month, was his claim that Turkey pays a money rent to Britain for the Dardanelles Straits.
I doubted his claim, and you have responded to a post where I was demanding some kind of proof (he never did provide it).
I fail to understand how that exchange between me and the OP has called forth the reaction above. What's the connection? Are you talking to the right person, or did you accidentally click on the wrong link?

originally posted by: 23432

originally posted by: intrptr

Nice try. The armed turkish militias ("Turkmen", what a gentle Euphemism) are also trying to overthrow syria, illegally.

How does one can legally overthrow a government ?

Turkmen has right to live on the same land they have been living for 1000 years or more .

What about the rights of the people they displaced? Like the Greeks, who have been living there for over 700,000 years (that's hundred thousands). Turks are a Mongol race and belong in western China and the way they're going, they won't even end up there. They'll just be turned to glass. Turkey is a terrorist gangster nation. A nation of thieves and murderers. A nation of crooks and swindlers.

a reply to: Xcathdra

LoL - Misadventure. . .

Is that what you've sunk too?


I remember when you & I quote said:

"Russian economy will collapse"

" Putin will be overthrown"


Turkey's govt is doing just FANTASTIC w/out any Foreign intervention - LMAO!!!

. . . And this is to Piss on Your Isis/Turkey Parade:

a reply to: SurrenderingIsBack

Putin just said the Russian economy is hurting from sanctions, which contradicted his earlier lies that everything was fine. He is facing increasing pressure domestically and the lies he told to the Russian people arent having the effect they used to.

He made to many promises to to many groups to get their support without seeing the inherent conflicts those groups have with each other.

a reply to: Xcathdra

And what re-assurances does Obama give the American populace when the economic downturn becomes "MAINSTREAM NEWS" ??

Please elaborate what chances united states has when the "downturn" FINALLY hits the news? You witnessed the PANIC in 08' - but this time it isn't contained to united states - - this is GLOBAL MELTDOWN. Opinions?


One thing WE BOTH CAN BE ASSURED ON IS: that Russian people are harder & resilient than American populace. . .


Keep swinging, Tiger

a reply to: SurrenderingIsBack

You just don't get it...

/sigh