The Crackdown Begins: EU Strengthens Control Of "Legal" Firearms After Paris Attacks

a reply to: Maxatoria

I posted in a thread the other day, you can walk into a shop here in the UK and legally buy (license permitting) a semi-auto M4 carbine (you can order them on the internet and have them delivered to your local gun shop), .22 cal, it seems it's only really fully auto rifles, sawn offs and handguns that are banned here.


I was quite surprised when I found that out.

Theres basically a few types of weaponry in the UK

air rifles under 12ft pressure....no need for a license just be over 18

Section 2 : the shotty either a single or double barrel or a pump action with no more than 3 rounds

Section 1 : Semi auto in .22, bolt action in most other calibers, hand guns (under a certain length) are still allowed but only 2 round for humane dispatch of animals etc...so watch some racing and see the curtains being drawn.........you know whats go happen.

Section 5 : these are everything else pretty much as and if you can get the home secretary drunk enough to sign for it you can have a 30k/min vulcan cannon on your lawn

originally posted by: Maxatoria
a reply to: NthOther

Like its going to be fun in places that serve alcohol where 'you spilled my pint' doesn't end up in a bit of a face off but 5 people dead and 27 injured when you pull out two handguns and go all 'murican.

we drink more over in europe so drinking+guns aint going to be the right combo.

Could i imagine a bunch over here in the uk of chav's tanked up on cheap cider with weaponry ...... fecking hell if that happens i want m-60's with DU ammo

thats a fairly insulting generalization... lots of places in the USA have CC laws and responsible gun owners dont whip it out at the slightest provocation.

On topic... If Euros want to depend on the state to save them thats on them... Living in germany right now and it was shocking to see my wife couldnt carry a decent pocket knife, some types of mace, a taser, or a retractable baton.

Boggles my mind, especially where we live (by the way we had an incident with some Syrian Refugees Id'd by the cops) so I started looking into what can be done to make sure the missus can protect herself... basically run away, call the cops, and hope one is close enough to help, are the only legal options.

I can be prosecuted for protecting my family inside our house from home invaders... mind boggling.

originally posted by: Maxatoria
a reply to: NthOther

Like its going to be fun in places that serve alcohol where 'you spilled my pint' doesn't end up in a bit of a face off but 5 people dead and 27 injured when you pull out two handguns and go all 'murican.

we drink more over in europe so drinking+guns aint going to be the right combo.

Could i imagine a bunch over here in the uk of chav's tanked up on cheap cider with weaponry ...... fecking hell if that happens i want m-60's with DU ammo

Drunks in the UK are dangerous enough without guns or knives. They'll glass you and just about fast movement you make is seen as an aggressive action. They'll get into fast furious punch fights with each other in the street, rush and stagger/stumble in front of anyone who tries to get on a bus before them, even if it isn't their bus route!

a reply to: infolurker

How can you expect the terrorists to win if the populace is armed?

Somehow, I don't see how restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens to access weapons that weren't used in these attacks is an appropriate or logical response to a terrorist attack with fully automatic weapons that are already illegal, but then again, little about most European gun laws and attitudes make much sense to me.

Oh well. As I've said before, its their house and their rules. If that's what they want, so be it.

It wouldn't have mattered if they had guns or not, they still would have met their objective by any means available to them.
Seriously

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: infolurker

How can you expect the terrorists to win if the populace is armed?

Excellent. My exact point.

a reply to: woogleuk

can you take them to your house or do you have to leave them at the gun club or range?
if you have to leave them, they don't do you much good at the house.

Maybe if we took all the firearms away from the military industrial complex and the alphabet agencies, they'd no longer have any guns to sell to ISIS in back alleys.

Just a thought.

originally posted by: Maxatoria
a reply to: NthOther

Like its going to be fun in places that serve alcohol where 'you spilled my pint' doesn't end up in a bit of a face off but 5 people dead and 27 injured when you pull out two handguns and go all 'murican.

we drink more over in europe so drinking+guns aint going to be the right combo.

Could i imagine a bunch over here in the uk of chav's tanked up on cheap cider with weaponry ...... fecking hell if that happens i want m-60's with DU ammo

You been watching too many john woo films. An shooter worth his weight in lead dont use the one handed style of shooting a gun for accuracies sake. And most bars here in th eUS check your guns at the door to prevent that situation you suggest because they arent stupid. Usually th e only gun is the one the owner has under the bar most of the time.

So the EU is gonna pull a hitler and ask for legally carried guns be registered and eventually turned in huh? Sucks to be you EU.

The issue is that lower restrictions (2nd amendment style as being suggested) will just lead to a new terrorist group in twenty or so years: The Police.

What are they going to crack down on? Bows and Muskets? From what I gather the French can only own firearms designed before 1900. That didn't stop terrorists from being fully kitted up.

How frustrating must that be to be oppressed by your government on one side and slaughtered by barbarians with no hope of self defense on the other. I mean, it would be one thing if they were at least safe in their oppression, but they are not.

Perhaps the EU should empower their citizens rather than subjugate them.

I see the statement in the post above, that french people cannot own guns not designed before 1900.
No, that is not true. You may be trying to refer to the exceptions for "matériel de guerre" (weapons of war) which are not allowed unless classified as collection or antique items. Weapons designed for use in war. A special catagory.

On the topic of the OP-

Ministers, who will meet on Friday, will try to push through quickly rules aimed at making it more difficult to acquire weapons and to track them better - possibly marking firearms with serial numbers - and do more to ensure that guns de-activated for sale as collectors items cannot be fired again.

Firearms can be de-activated so that they can no longer be used for lethal action. But loopholes and different national legislation among EU members can be exploited allowing for weapons, though to be out of use, to be re-activated.

This particular subject was brought up because

This is particularly pressing because of evidence that the January attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo was carried out with Kalashnikov rifles that had previously been decommissioned for legal sale, EU officials say.

source

If the military finds out they are the source of the weapons the "bad guys" are getting, because they did not properly mark them or de-activate them, I think it is rather reasonable that they try harder to do that in the future? That's just being responsible.

If they don't make some effort, I think the people will get very pissed, at least here. The french aren't really fond of defending the freedoms of the masters. They tend to think the masters need some limitations and pressure on them. We can call that crazy - I'm more of a Stockholm syndrome girl myself, like my compatriots.

At the same time, in France they are discussing making it obligatory for all police and security personel to carry a weapon even while off duty.


Can we please stop the rumors that all firearms are illegal in France?

32% of the population in France own firearms. It is in 2nd place of the most heavily armed countries of the EU. (Switzerland being n°1)

originally posted by: Maxatoria
a reply to: NthOther

Like its going to be fun in places that serve alcohol where 'you spilled my pint' doesn't end up in a bit of a face off but 5 people dead and 27 injured when you pull out two handguns and go all 'murican.

we drink more over in europe so drinking+guns aint going to be the right combo.

Could i imagine a bunch over here in the uk of chav's tanked up on cheap cider with weaponry ...... fecking hell if that happens i want m-60's with DU ammo

I partially agree, partially disagree with this.

You're right that guns and drinking certainly don't mix. Even in the US, many places that allow concealed carry have restrictions in place surrounding alcohol. If a similar system was ever implemented here, then (in theory at least) the two drunk guys shouldn't have guns. In theory. In practice it's probably a very different matter.

On the other hand, even if the UK extended firearms ownership to "self defence", it would still be within the same framework as now - which includes background checks, interviews with referees, home inspections, etc.

Does this prevent the UK chavs from getting firearms? Not necessarily, provided they haven't got a criminal history, there are no indicators with the police of concerns, they can provide appropriate references from reputable people, agree to let the police wander into the house at will for random checks, and they can cover the costs of having safes fitted, club fees, licensing fees, etc. If they can do all that, of course, then why shouldn't they get a FAC?

In my opinion the UK could quite easily move handguns and semi-auto rifles back to section 1 without seeing any major problems. The current system is probably the toughest and most comprehensive licensing system in the world.

I think I've mentioned this elsewhere, but my position is that I agree entirely with people being able to keep and bear arms for self defence. I wouldn't CCW a handgun myself for various reasons, but I support having the option available.

originally posted by: infolurker
Strange, I did not know that the recent terrorists in Europe with full auto AK 47's acquired them legally.... LOL

Yes, that would be strange. I don't know where you got such an idea, but I am guessing there must be a lot of crazy disinfo out there.
Sometimes it is just in the wording, where things get lost in translation.
Like what is legal in one country is not legal in another. I've seen some articles in english do not make the distinction.

The ones used in the recent Paris attack were bought in Slovakia, legally. They were decommissioned and sold for use as movie props. But they were not decommissioned well enough, for they were reconverted for use.
Trying to get all the EU countries on the same page, so that they are more careful about their requirements can help, as well as reinforcing border controls (which is what they want to discuss).

We have a lot of illegal Kalashnikovs at the moment, this is why-

Most of the arms found on the black market in France and other Western European countries hail from countries, many in Eastern Europe, with a proliferation of guns and loose or poorly enforced regulations or are trafficked from conflict zones, according to experts.

“One of the reasons we see a lot of Kalashnikovs and AK-47s on the black market is because Russia has just upgraded the Kalashnikov, and that has created massive stockpiles of the older models,” said Kathie Lynn Austin, an expert on arms trafficking and the director of the Conflict Awareness Project, an international nongovernmental organization dedicated to investigating major arms traffickers.

where are the guns in france coming from?

So we're talking here about illegally obtained and held firearms.

Now, some of these are legally bought and held, but they are registered and marked. My husband is a registered collector, incidentally. These talks do not intend to take any legal weapons off the market, they simply aim to deal with the traffic of illegal and unmarked firearms.

originally posted by: Maxatoria
Section 1 : Semi auto in .22, bolt action in most other calibers, hand guns (under a certain length) are still allowed but only 2 round for humane dispatch of animals etc...so watch some racing and see the curtains being drawn.........you know whats go happen.

Just to clarify on this point: hand guns over a certain length - they must meet minimum barrel and minimum overall length requirements. So, you'll see a lot of LBR/LBP (long barrel revolver/long barrel pistol) with odd metal bars hanging off the back of the grip to meet the minimum overall length requirement!

Also, "bolt-action" is a particular type of action but not the only kind. The key thing is that the centrefire rifles are single shot - in other words, you have to do something to manually cycle the bolt between each shot.

At the risk of going off on a tangent (now that would be a first for ATS) there's a company in the south west who specialise in lever-release systems that meet this criteria, even though the bolt is still driven by recoil/gas. The system is essentially a "hold open" that catches the bolt in each cycle, the user then hits a button to release it and allow the bolt to travel forward. It's quite ingenious, really, and very little speed difference to true aimed semi-auto.

For those interested but unaware, the following picture shows a .22 and a .223 round. A previous poster mentioned M4 carbines in .22. A centrefire M4 (ie what the US military use) could fire the larger .223 round. The .22 M4 that the poster mentioned would fire the much smaller .22 round.

www.thefirearmblog.com... 04/22_penny_223-tm-tfb.jpg

originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
a reply to: woogleuk

can you take them to your house or do you have to leave them at the gun club or range?
if you have to leave them, they don't do you much good at the house.

Firearms and ammunition are stored at home. I believe there are a handful of special cases where storage at an approved range is required.

originally posted by: Chillimac
What are they going to crack down on? Bows and Muskets? From what I gather the French can only own firearms designed before 1900. That didn't stop terrorists from being fully kitted up.

I believe that refers to firearms that can be owned without going through the licensing system. It's actually slightly stricter than the date cut-off, and basically allows ownership of firearms that are pretty useless outside of leisurely plinking or that use ammunition that is difficult to find. I believe even the pre-1900 leverguns (which many would argue are still solid self-defence choices to this day) have been exempted from the cut off so require a license.

You can still own other firearms if you get a licence. Which is, as always, a matter of time and money.

32% of the population in France own firearms. It is in 2nd place of the most heavily armed countries of the EU. (Switzerland being n°1)

Well, there's your problem. You need 100% of the population to own a gun if you want to be safe.

In all seriousness, the issue with using guns as a defense against terrorists is that most people don't carry their gun around with them all the time and won't have it on them in actual case of a terrorist attack. Now, if the ISIS was looking to actually invade the country in full force, sure, 100% gun ownership, but unless you want everyone in France to be walking around with loaded pistols it's pointless.