How many of you have read the Quran?

originally posted by: dreamlotus1111
if you want an even better way to understand a group of individuals. how about observe them? study them? reading an ancient book like its some sort of instruction manual will not help you to decipher what is really going on with an entire group of people. it just wont work.

Or you can read the entire instruction manual first, then see if the adherents are following it. If you wanted to understand the American legal system, wouldn't you start off by reading the US Constitution first? Then you could see for yourself if something were constitutional or unconstitutional.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Which is exactly why I started reading the Koran. I've not gotten very far but still it seems that it respects womens rights, particularly in divorce.

I still have much to read.

One exciting thing that is stated is that Allah is 'Lord of the Worlds'. Yes...that is a plural. Given my belief in ancient intergalactic visitation this also ties in with comments in the Torah by the 'Lord of Hosts'. Given our planet hosts humans and this being claims to be Lord of Hosts (plural) then yes, I could be reading literature supplied again by intergalatic visitors

originally posted by: LightAssassin
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Which is exactly why I started reading the Koran. I've not gotten very far but still it seems that it respects womens rights, particularly in divorce.

I still have much to read.

One exciting thing that is stated is that Allah is 'Lord of the Worlds'. Yes...that is a plural. Given my belief in ancient intergalactic visitation this also ties in with comments in the Torah by the 'Lord of Hosts'. Given our planet hosts humans and this being claims to be Lord of Hosts (plural) then yes, I could be reading literature supplied again by intergalatic visitors

Yep, yep, yep! I try to point that out to people, especially when they lump all religious views on God together. And as you probably noticed, the very first Surah (the Fatiha) calls God "the Lord of the Worlds". So it's not like it takes some new age interpretation or deep reading to find that out.

I also try to point out the part about women's rights that you mentioned. If using modern terms, the Qur'an literally requires women to be allowed to choose who they marry (so no forced marriages), guarantees women the right to divorce, the right to alimony until she gets remarried, inheritance rights, and the husband must give the wife a valuable gift upon marriage (though she has the authority to delay this gift if he's poor, she cannot nullify it- he must give it). The ex-husband is also required to make sure any children from the marriage are taken care of, kind of like America's "child support" system (there's probably more, but I admittedly never paid much attention to the marriage aspects).

And if practicing polygamy, the husband has to provide each woman with equal and separate housing; the women have to both know about and agree to the multiple wives (like the Prophets Abraham & Jacob and their wives); there can be no 3somes, 4somes, or 5somes; and there can be absolutely no favoritism (what's done for one must be done for the others). Oh, and any of the women can still choose to divorce the husband at will, which triggers the alimony & child support mentioned above. This is why most Muslims don't do it lol.

This is actually one of the reasons that the largest group of Western converts to Islam are usually white women. People demonize Islam & its supposed treatment of women, but when they actually start reading the Qur'an, they realize the fearmongering doesn't match the reality. There will always be cases of people treating women unfairly or flat out horribly. But that's a global problem, not an Islamic one.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: dreamlotus1111
if you want an even better way to understand a group of individuals. how about observe them? study them? reading an ancient book like its some sort of instruction manual will not help you to decipher what is really going on with an entire group of people. it just wont work.

Or you can read the entire instruction manual first, then see if the adherents are following it. If you wanted to understand the American legal system, wouldn't you start off by reading the US Constitution first? Then you could see for yourself if something were constitutional or unconstitutional.

apparently your book is not being upheld in the right ways because there is so much drama surrounding your religion and various individuals that claim they are doing nothing but good in the eyes of muhammed and or allah.
it would seem like nothing is truly as it seems. hmm.

I have read it twice. At one point, when I was young and Liberal minded, I worked for a devout White Muslim. He constantly spoke of Islam and I was a curious type of kid willing to give everything a look.

I attended meetings at Mosque, Q&A sessions with the Imam, dinners, etc.

The Koran (Quran) is a text made with simple minded stanzas and quatrains that literally appeals to those with lower IQs. It doesn't say much of anything of substance. 90% of it is rambling and repetition. If you had to compare it to the Bible or Torah, it reads like a pop-up book, with regard to substance.

A lot loses it's meaning in English because Arabic is more 'poetic', but other than that it's rather a waste of space. Someone who is moved by passion and not logic will love it. But even it's poetic nature is dull and repetitive.

And I'm not a Christian, I'm nearly an Atheist at present.

originally posted by: dreamlotus1111

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: dreamlotus1111
if you want an even better way to understand a group of individuals. how about observe them? study them? reading an ancient book like its some sort of instruction manual will not help you to decipher what is really going on with an entire group of people. it just wont work.

Or you can read the entire instruction manual first, then see if the adherents are following it. If you wanted to understand the American legal system, wouldn't you start off by reading the US Constitution first? Then you could see for yourself if something were constitutional or unconstitutional.

apparently your book is not being upheld in the right ways because there is so much drama surrounding your religion and various individuals that claim they are doing nothing but good in the eyes of muhammed and or allah.
it would seem like nothing is truly as it seems. hmm.

Or...

Those people don't follow our book; have never fully read our book; pick & choose what they follow from our book; or create new denominations & sects so they can add innovations that nullify, "reinterpret", or "supercede" our book. Just like what happens with every other religion or ideology. Think about it for a second, how many Americans have actually read the entire US Constitution or agree on what's constitutional or unconstitutional? How many pro-Confederate people have actually read the Confederate Constitution and Articles of Secession? And how many Christians have actually read the entire Bible or agree on its interpretations?

This is literally why there are Islamic women's rights groups in Muslim majority countries. Each country is different so the issues are different, but the women typically use passages from the Qur'an to justify their grievances. Just like how Dr. and Reverend Martin Luther King Jr used Bible passages & Christian teachings to fight against the treatment of minorities by America's Christian majority.

a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. So if that's how you feel, that's fine. Of course, I completely disagree with everything you said lol.

So maybe the readers of this thread can see this as a challenge to read the entire book then decide for themselves? They don't have to accept or reject anything in it, just as we don't have to accept or reject any of the conspiracy theories we see on this site.

wouldnt it be beautiful and majestic if everyone in the world read the quran in its entirety? wow what a thought...we would become so united. that is the answer.

I’ve read the entire Quran

The word means The Reciting or recitation

It is a thematic Mantra of metaphysical realities

The Prophet Muhammad said that it was the angel or presence Jibril or the Archangel Gabriel that revealed the Quran to him in a trance channeling type format.

The Quran is an expression of Karmic metaphysical law and a declaration of the reality of what is known as the last day or Apocalypse. The ultimate clearing or purifying of the macrocosmic negative forces that have deceived humans since the fall of man.

Apocalypse means, the revealing

The Quran calls it: The Last Day, Qiyama-Resurection

Day of requital (or religion) Malikiyaumeedeen

The Quran is like a rhythmic ode; it is not like a scholarly text of ordinary speech

It is also an extremely powerful book

So powerful that Sufis have warned that it should be recited wisely not indiscriminately.

a reply to: Willtell

Yes I have read it, I did so because I had Islamic students and wanted to understand them better. Their stay was booked through the local Mosque and I was given one when I asked for it.

The trouble is it contradicts itself and reflects when it was written and the thinking of that time. The bible does the same.

There is no point in commenting on the Quran (or the bible which has similar stories) because its the Hadiths and Sharia that need to be read and fully understood by Westerners as to the problems Islam spreads. Also the same should be emphasised about the Talmud.

Its because when religion is taught, these extra teachings and their full implications on Western countries are not taught and fully explained. This leaves Christians and the non-religious with Western ideology sitting-duck victims because their sentiments of tolerance and turning the other cheek are not present in either Islam or Judaism. One would have thought with islamic terrorism all over the world, this would have percolated into people's minds.

These religions have been waging war on both non, or even different-view-believers for a long time. No one should judge our current world without understanding what motivates many powerful individuals who are in charge of it. King Saud through Sharia, can crucify anyone he regards as a mischief maker and who doesn't agree with him with the full support of his religious henchmen. He is exporting these beliefs around the world through his mosque infiltration programme and its imans and the thugs who go around with them. I don't need to mention the zionist bank's money lenders and their predatory attitude towards Western goy, one only has to look at how politicians protect them plus the silence of the (already infiltrated) Western press on these matters.

a reply to: Ectospasm

Same brainwashing crap just like in bible. So if your read one don't bother with other it is same thing just different package.

a reply to: projectvxn

What I see here is that since you have no legitimate arguments for the points I brought up, you're attempting to make it about me. It's really a ridiculous attempt at deflection.

You were ridiculing the Quran, when I pointed that out you called it picking a fight.

Disagreeing isn't fighting.

a reply to: Willtell

That was pretty deep. And the more its read, the more certain things catch the eye. As in, every time I read it, I learn more & more things from it. It's like it's multi-layered & a beginner's eyes will only notice the basics.

The Qur'an is so rhythmic that it can be chanted like rap choruses. In fact, I think that's how it's supposed to be recited, instead of the drawn out & heavily embellished recitals we normally hear. I've been thinking of doing a side project where I recite the Surahs to beats while maintaining their natural rhythm, because I think it would help new Muslims and kids memorize it faster.

(note: i don't want to mislead anyone. i don't have nearly the entire Qur'an memorized. a project like this would also serve to help me learn it faster, too)

a reply to: intrptr

You were ridiculing the Quran, when I pointed that out you called it picking a fight.

Disagreeing isn't fighting.

I did no such thing. I did not ridicule the Quran.

Maybe you should actually read the source I provided in that initial post.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I still am of the impression that what is evidenced in the Quran is the fact that Allah is the leader of a group of intergalactic beings (and possibly even more highly ranked than 'Angels') because the amount of times the plural 'We' is spoken when referencing events from the Torah, or actions done by Allah.

In fact, whoever this group is that are delivering this to Muhammed claims to have been actively involved in a lot more incidents in the Torah that the Torah claims 'God/Allah' actioned, which I find interesting because of the work done by thechronicleproject.org and their re-translation of the Torah using their Self-Defining Hebrew system, which clarifies that there was a group of beings involved in the terraforming of Planet Earth and creation of Man (hence the let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness and where that plurality stems from). Nevertheless, interesting read so far.

That and the claims made that the Torah has been distorted by man which I find again very interesting when comparing the SDH version of Genesis vs. Septuagint vs. King James Bible.

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

So woe to all those sects of Islam who follow their Hadiths over the Koran aka ISIS and even Sunni and Shia muslims, I guess...from memory their whole issue is over their hadith's is it not?

a reply to: LightAssassin

Ah, the "we"/"our" misconception. There's actually a simple answer to that, though it's up to you to accept or reject it.

Allah/God had the Qur'an revealed to the Prophet Muhammad through Angels. It wasn't Allah/God directly speaking to him. Tradition says it was the Angel Gibril/Gabriel who did it, but I don't think the Qur'an identifies which Angel or Angels did it. In Islam, we believe the Angels have no free will & only exist to serve God. As in, they carry out His actions when He wants them to, though He can do them Himself if He chooses to. A simple lame comparison would be how human hands & feet only exist to do the will of the human mind, so any work they do is credited to the human "owner/ruler", not to the hands themselves.

So to me, it is simply the Angel or Angels saying "we, (Allah/God & His Servants), did this & this". Even in the accounts where a Prophet would kneel to an Angel, the Angel would correct him & say "No! Don't kneel to me! I'm just a servant too" (paraphrased b/c I'm too lazy to find the exact instances). I guess it would be like me teaching a puppy something my leader was having my division do; then the puppy interprets this as if I was on par with my leader, even though I'm not. Some occult groups take this further & believe Allah/God shares power with the Angels to some extent, while some go even further & say God only issues commands that the Angels figure out & execute.

I see it more like Allah/God is a humorous and creative inventor who has mastered animation & 4D simulations. He makes all kinds of "living" entities, gives them a range of capabilities, then does whatever else with them. If His creations do things that displease Him, He sees it as an error in their coding & deletes them (or guides them to "correct" themselves through seen & unseen interventions). The comparison there would be me being an inventor who's mastered AI "robots". I give each one specific capabilities & instructions, then send them out to do tasks which I could do, but don't want to. If the robot meets you & tells you of our exploits, who gets the credit?

Sorry to be so long, but I don't actually disagree with what you typed. It's a possibility, though I think the issue would be the wording. If we say "Heaven/Jannah" & "Hell/Jahannam", people will have one perception. But what if we say "a blissful dimension" & "a prison dimension", both of which are outside of the 4th dimension, so they don't experience time/duration? The blissful dimension could be the "true" existence where all of the "real" beings live (my eternal socialist utopia!); our current dimension could be a limited, 4-dimensional realm where new souls and/or species are tested (like a beta software realm); and the "prison" dimension could be the place where the defective souls are sent, like a trash bin or landfill. But each soul/program has the freedom to choose which realm it will go to, depending on its actions in the test realm.

I already believe it's our souls that are being tested in this realm & our bodies are just the vessels that let us experience this realm. And the Qur'an says our bodies will snitch on us on the Day of Judgment & that we'll be given new bodies in Heaven. And with Allah/God being described as the "Lord of the Worlds", I easily accept that He & His Angels are testing a nearly immeasurable number of other creatures & souls throughout our universe (aka, the "test realm"). So I guess they could be seen as intergalactic beings in that regards, though not limited to that designation.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Well that explanation is possible but it isn't really clarified is it (in the Quran)? Basically, a group of studied Islamic scholars sat down and decided what best way to understand the plural 'We' that is constantly used and they moved forward from there with their teachings.

Nevertheless, the Originators/Angels are clearly speaking with Muhammed and claiming to have actioned a lot of what the Torah claims God actioned, such as the parting of the waters for Moses. Now, given the Torah has heaped Allah and the Originators/Angels together into one character then it makes absolute sense that these beings, under instruction from Allah, actually did action these events....and the Quran does not try to hide the plurality of this other group being a separate entity to Allah, unlike the possibly tainted Torah.

If you are interested, and I highly recommend it for some insight, please have a look at The Chronicle Project as this re-translation of the Torah supports the Quran even more than the standard Torah does. These guys have been given a great amount of grief from Jewish scholars over their Self-Defining Hebrew but they have persisted and are making sense of a lot of inconsistencies within the Torah.

a reply to: LightAssassin

Islam brought a lot of order civility to the pagan traders and tribes of the Arabian peninsula when it arrived. From my understanding, Mohammad traveled to Jerusalem and all over with his uncle and saw how Christians and Jews were doing things --- and saw how backwards his own fellow people were in comparison.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

I'm referring to scholars of today, and how they sit down and decide which way to interpret that particular phenomenon within the Quran.

Nevertheless, interesting info.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Everyone speaks about the Quar'an and seems to neglect responding questions about 'Hadiths'? Are there other books and laws that Islam promotes beyond the Quar'an? I am curious, since obviously there must be more for so many sects to have formed based on the same main book. You see this amongst all religious groups. One main book, but also segments from apostates or laws given afterwards which create divisions. How can one tell if a Muslim has veered from Islam into a more radical interpretation?