What Happened to the People?

Propaganda and extensive social programming/conditioning.

People are more concerned with what others say than what they do. No one thinks they are responsible, in any way, neither do we think we are capable of the very behaviors we criticize.

We are a giant mass of undulating hypocrisy slowly rolling to the cliff's edge.

Not me though, obviously.

a reply to: Tiamat384

So tell me Tiamat 384, what are your main grievances? Are you just looking for a cause to exercise civil dissent? Or do you actually feel oppressed and wronged by society?

I was a freshman in college in 1974, a long time ago. The Vietnam War was winding down and WaterGate was all over the news. But even though there were protests, we did something about it in a different way. We got rid of the criminals in elected office as best that we could. There were problems certainly but I can tell you that the quality of life back then was quite different than today. Our standard of living today is higher, much higher, than those days and we learned that if you wanted to have a higher one than your parents then you had to work for it. Do something different than your parents did. Burning things down on campus did not achieve anything.

Socially, if you are looking for a cause, why not do something that will make your country stronger? Volunteer for the Peace Corps. Get involved with your community to help homeless people. And by "help" I don't necessarily mean give away something, (we are too tuned into the notion that charity means free) but be a big brother, teach at an adult learning center, organize a neighborhood sports program, or do something that gets kids off of the couch away from the playstation. The only way this country is going to turn around is for people to learn that they must be responsible for oneself. And not to turn to the government for everything they don't have and think they should.

Protests are fine but they must be backed with a noble cause. Protesting for the sake of protesting only turns people off. The current trend of campus protestations are lacking in this area. Those of us who are leaders in our communities struggle to empathize when the very students who are protesting cannot articulate exactly how they are being oppressed. Or worse, when the very things they cite are proven to be inaccurate. That happens so often it is hard to take any of it seriously. The Fecal swastika, Hands Up Don't Shoot, the KKK on campus, to name a few. These things did not happen as reported and when that is learned it takes the wind out of the sails of any ship of protest.

So, my message to you is take a positive approach. You seem to be looking for a reason to be angry when you do not have a reason to be.

Why would you want to protest the War on Terror? If anything after the slaughter that occurred in Paris we should be escalating it because while war truly is hell it is one thing to see it on a news report. It would be an entirely different thing if one of your family members was sitting at one of those cafes in Paris when one of those ISIS criminals drove up and started shooting at them. And if we don't do something soon the shopping malls that get attacked next will be in your home town. Or an elementary school or a football game with a full stadium. Believe me, protests that are aimed at anything but putting a quick end to these animals are exactly what the bad guys welcome. I wonder how many innocent people have to die before you think protesting is a bad idea.

a reply to: icewater
Before I address anything else, I'm going to have to say that there seems to be a bit of a contradiction. You say to do some form of charity, but also that people need to be responsible for themselves, so which is it?

Escalate the War on Terror? Tell me you are joking. Escalation will do what the War on Terror has constantly done, increase terrorism. And if it were truly a "War on Terror" then why is it Al Qaeda and IS are the ones being "targeted" by the West?

I do agree with you 100% that protests should be for some sort of noble cause and that the recent protests, in particular college ones, are less than noble and seem to be for fabricated reasons.

Ultimately yes I think the people are oppressed, but it's like in Brave New World where life for the oppressed was "good" that they just didn't seem to care or notice.

I'm exhausted right now. Hungry rather and I have to prepare a Thread that needs to be detailed, informative and enthusiastic. Hopefully I answered part(s) of your reply.

a reply to: Serdgiam
I think we care about what others think and what others say of us, than anything else. And ourselves and own comfort. Not you? Are you sure? Carefully evaluate your life, your actions and your beliefs. I need to do the same.

originally posted by: Tiamat384
a reply to: Serdgiam
I think we care about what others think and what others say of us, than anything else. And ourselves and own comfort. Not you? Are you sure? Carefully evaluate your life, your actions and your beliefs. I need to do the same.

I think it says an enormous amount about the state of things that that last line could be taken seriously, for even a moment!

There are definitely plenty that care about what others think, though it seems to have shifted away from caring about self image.

I also see a lot of people having conversations with their own mind, perhaps exacerbated by increasingly impersonal communication methods. Its going to happen, inherently, but zealously embracing it can be problematic.

a reply to: Serdgiam

What do you mean with the first section of your response?

Honestly I think people still think about their own image more than anything else.

Probably right about the lack of personal communication

a reply to: Tiamat384
I said do something for your country. And differentiated between doing something and giving things away. The citizens of our country who have needs that they cannot meet seem to expect the government to give them things they cannot provide for themselves. I know I am painting with a broad brush here because I don't see everyone and I know there are those who would rather take care of themselves than accept a handout. (I know because I had my time of unemployment for three years and it never occurred to me to even go to the unemployment office and get money I didn't earn). I am speaking of things such as cell phones, and to some extent housing. My son-in-law has a seasonal job and is planning to draw unemployment this winter. He told me that the county has him on a worker list....if there is a need for someone of his skills such as driving a snow plow he is subject to being called. I think that should be the case everywhere. But my message for you is to take some positive action in your community or even at a national level such as a volunteer organization (Peace Corps, which I mentioned) and reach out to people who need serious help. It will do two things...it will help your community and the people who need it and it will help you get out of your funk and show you that there is good in the people around you. In your neighborhood, in your church, schools, and community in general. You would be surprised how fulfilling it feels to do something that puts a smile on the face of a person in need and how fulfilling it is to inspire.

The War on Terror. You think we are responsible for the terrorism that exists in the world today. Are we responsible for the fact that these groups have been at war with each other for a thousand years? Are we responsible for the fact that these groups have been oppressing women and children throughout history? And even in modern times do you not accept that the United States must lead in creating freedom for every person or are you okay with dictators who systematically murder their own citizens with mustard gas and other weapons for political reasons? If that sort of thing happened in the United States, if the Obama administration decided to round up conservative enemies and make them magically disappear overnight how would you react? Well, that is exactly what happens in many of these countries, Iraq included, which causes us to get involved. I know the liberal talking points, that we are at war for oil and to put money in the coffers of the rich but I have been in those countries and I have seen those people pleading with me on the street to help them, because I am an American. We didn't start the War (and frankly at this point it really doesn't matter) but if we don't finish it the things you read about or hear about on a daily basis about explosions in cafes and buses blowing up on city streets in Europe and the middle east will begin to happen in our country. If that happens we will unleash holy hell on the bad guys the likes of which we haven't seen since WWII. We are targeting Al Qaeda and ISIS because they have (and have vowed to continue) kidnapped innocent civilians and decapitated them horrifically for political gain. They have murdered hundreds of thousands of their own people because the do not agree with the western way of life. They cannot exist in a civilized world.

Take a look at that group in east Africa....Boco Harem, a Sunni Muslim fundamentalist sect. Do you endorse their actions? Do you think young girls should be kidnapped and forced into sexual slavery? How about ISIS? Are you okay with women being third class citizens and people being dragged out of their homes in the middle of the night and executed because a woman wants a divorce? Our role at the beginning of this whole mess was to provide stability for regions in hopes that the people would stand up and remove the despots who appointed themselves leaders of these countries. And that role was endorsed by the UN. And that hasn't worked.

And as you stated we target the bad guys. And only the bad guys and not innocent civilians. We could have had Osama bin Laden long before we actually got him if we were not concerned with killing innocents. On the other hand those groups fight their war by primarily killing innocent civilians in an effort to break our will to fight. Obviously that effort has been successful with you.

Nobody likes war, especially those of us who have been in one. But we are not afraid to fight if that is the only language those groups understand. And to be honest our role in the middle east was minimal until September 11th 2001. We poured billions of dollars into the region in aid, we worked with leadership, provided food, medical supplies and weapons to the countries that were in a struggle against these groups. But more and more we found that that money went into the wrong hands, the weapons went to the wrong groups, and those who needed the supplies (food and medical supplies) did not reach those who needed them. And then they killed 3000 American citizens whose only crime was to go to work on a Tuesday morning. And let me remind you that nearly every liberal politician, including Senator Hillary Clinton, voted to support the President to escalate the war and kill the bad guys. She denies it but she lies. I remember the photo op of her and other New York politicians in the Oval Office grinning from ear to ear as the President signed the order. We can get into the whole weapons of mass destruction argument and whether they were in Iraq or not but remember Colan Powell, who has been critical of the war, went before the UN with the photo intelligence that they were there. Saddam Hussein tried to recruit Abu Nidal, who was the Osama Bin Ladin of his time and organized the war in Lebanon in 1983. Nidal was retired and living in Iraq and Saddam wanted him to train terrorists in Iraq. He refused so Saddam had him assassinated that very night. No great loss to society but it shows how dedicated Saddam was to escalating terrorism in the middle east.

This is probably more than you wanted to know but it is probably more than they are teaching in history classes these days. And if you want your children and grand children to live in a safe and prosperous country (like you have) then we must realize this fight is something that must happen.

a reply to: icewater
Yes, there is good in people. Though frankly the majority of people are self-centered and care little for anything of any importance. You can argue that people support, emotionally and spiritually, those that died or were in a terrible event, such as the Paris Massacre, but they only do this when it is popular. When I went to my friends to tell them the horrible tragedy, none cared. As didn't anyone else around, including non-friends. But when it became popular through the social medias, everyone was into it, and even that lasted for maybe 10 minutes actively. Besides, the people are lazy right now, they do not care to take the power they have. They lack the will. The governments and corporations are the evil ones. Though I wouldn't call them so much evil, as corrupt and greedy.

Do I think the West is responsible for terrorism? Yes, at the very least to some decent extent. Al-Qaeda has its origins in the mujaheddin which was supported by the West against the Soviets in the '80s. From then Bin Laden was seen as a hero to the Middle Eastern's and had the West ended the bombings of Iraq there would be a lack of global terrorism. These people, the terrorists as we call them, only formed because of an ideology. Now, you can argue that they don't truly follow an ideology, but the truth is that for any organization to exist they must be founded on some form of ideology such as the anti-American which was based on America's war mongering. The USA is one of the largest supporters of terrorism. The USA continues to support Israel, which should be in ways considered a terrorist state, in that American provides funding to Israel and in which Israel bombs civilians. The USA supports "moderates" in Syria when no such thing exists.

You mention Boko Haram. Well why is there no Western intervention? They have proven to be as deadly, if not deadlier than IS. Oh right. They don't have oil. There are areas in the world that require intervention just the same as the Middle East, but we are fed propaganda as if it were the only region with problems that matter because the region is filled with oil. The USA is concerned with killing innocents? Tell that to the over 1100 that were killed by American drone strike to kill one terrorist (multiple times and terrorists, but per raid one terrorist targeted) and we can assume some of those were also lo profile terrorists, but the truth is the USA murdered children and other innocents. The American bombing of the Afghan hospital. 31 dead if I recall correctly. The Western propaganda machine that Russia destroy 6 hospitals, because if they destroyed 6, then 1 is nothing. But 5 of those don't exist, and the one that does is fine, undamaged.

I didn't say the West is targeting the bad guys...I was asking why are they being targeted and the answer is they are considered the bad guys and they are on the land of oil, unlike Boko Haram who are not being targeted by the West.

9/11 is to the War on Terror as Pearl Harbor is to the Second World War. It allowed the USA the enter the war, or a war. Or in this case create one. Research Operation Northwood. The USA is not beyond terrorism to go where they want. And I live in a safe country. By comparison to some, sure. But by no means is it safe.

nsarchive.gwu.edu...

a reply to: berenike
True. It's a grey region. If you boycott an industry or corporation that makes use of child labor/slavery what will happen to the children and families. They may be worse off. Now I have to think about this, in fact. May be a good Thread Topic. Debating this.

a reply to: Murgatroid
I think belief in secret societies controlling our world is a tad bit far fetched and is a bit delusional, though I suppose we all might be delusional.

a reply to: Tiamat384
Well, if your friends are not concerned with the attack in Paris they should be. Frankly it caused me to conclude we must escalate this war as quickly as possible. The reason? That kind of attack is coming here. I predicted the same thing two years before 9-11 so much so that I had friends call me the next day asking how I knew. I knew because it seemed like the logical next step for these monsters. You are correct they are operating on ideology. They attacked Paris not because of France's presence in the middle east. They attacked, according to their own words, because Paris is the center of prostitution and debauchery. They have a holy book that says they must kill infidels and that is how they have branded most of the west.

You don't want us to intervene when people are enslaved but complain to me about why we don't attack Boco Harem. Trust me, we have special ops who are dialed in to that group but once again, consideration for civilians safety trumps a broad offensive approach. We are limited by, among other things, a President who lacks the will to make unpopular decisions for the greater good. He has always been naive about foreign policy, thinking he can negotiate with anyone and convince them to set their ideology aside. He can't and unlike previous Presidents none of these bad people fear him. He has drawn too many lines in the proverbial sand and has not backed his threats. So these groups are empowered to commit atrocities at their will.

We need middle east oil, there is no question. Not as much as in the past but do not forget the Saudi's need us as well. Our society is an oil based society and as much as liberals want to say otherwise that is not going to change until we can produce alternative energy as cheap as oil. You benefit from it as much as anyone and if you think not you are naive. The very computer you are using at this moment is made of petroleum based products. Without them our lives would be very very different. Your computer and other devices you have come to take for granted is built on technology that major corporations and our Federal Government developed. You want to get rid of big business but you could not live without them. They are a fact of life no matter how much you disagree with their methods.

If you want to talk about the Cold War, I am happy to go there. Yes Saddam was propped up by US interests in defeating the Soviet Union. And yes there was a lot of interest in Cuba in the early sixties. But all for a good reason. The Soviet Union adopted an expansionist strategy immediately after WWII ended, vowing to never let anything like Nazi Germany did to them to happen again. We watched them invade their border states with some understanding frankly. They lost 20million of their citizens at the hands of the Nazi's. But once again a communist dictatorship does nothing but oppress the people. You have heard the expression, "Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely"? That was never more true than with the communists in the politburo. We were not about to let that expansion happen 90 miles from the southeast United States. We were not about to let the Soviets put missiles that close to American shores. At least President Kennedy got that right but I doubt if any of the democrats running for President today would have had the backbone to do what he did with the blockade and staring down Khrushchev they way he did.

The cold war ended the way it had to. Destiny would have not had it any other way. It collapsed under its own weight. Yes Iran and Iraq and all of the middle east were players in how it all unfolded but we could not have predicted that Saddam would have used the very weapons and funding we gave him in his war against Iran,which we supported to turn on his own people. He tried to exterminate the Kurds for Gods sake. He had his goons go door to door assassinating what he called "Friends of America". These were College Professors, Red Cross workers, and diplomats. And their families. And yes we evacuated 8000 Kurds and made them US citizens in the late nineties after the horrific murder of hundreds of thousands using chemical warfare, a weapon of mass destruction. So yes he had them and yes he used them.

We did not ask for this war on terrorism. One of the problems with war is people get killed. Civilians get killed. They have in every war ever fought in the history of this planet. It is a terrible terrible thing and is a last resort. But destiny has taken us there and Paris has convinced me it is time to get serious and kill every last one of these ISIS goons who are living in the past and who condemn anyone who cannot conform to the Koran to die. Because that is what their goal is. That means you, me, our families, your neighbors, classmates, and every other free person on this planet.

originally posted by: Tiamat384
a reply to: Serdgiam

What do you mean with the first section of your response?

Well, first lets establish that I wasn't actually serious. I do, in fact, see myself as responsible in some ways.

The line was intended to be blatantly hypocritical, to the point of absurdity. When such absurdity is taken as serious, well, it suggests that we are used to absurd hypocrisy as normal.

Honestly I think people still think about their own image more than anything else.

I'm sure there are plenty that agree with that, I'm simply not one of them! I've actually witnessed a decrease in such behavior. Now, people are more interested in shifting focus, usually to their counter culture. Much easier to spend time destroying someone else's image than spend time on our own.

I actually see far too little concern with who we are, individually, with too much focus on generalized social groups. Who we are not becomes more of a focus than who we are, as that only requires blanket criticism and contrarianism rather than introspection.