If Jesus is a ransom to free us from Sin/Satan, then his blood sacrifice was made to Satan.

That God, the almighty (all-powerful), had to pay a ransom of his perfect innocent son's blood and death to the devil to free us from him does not make any sense.

It's a very dark belief.

God does not have to pay the devil anything as a ransom. God is in charge, not the devil. God does not become a murderer to please the devil.

a reply to: arpgme

Errm

I'm not religious, but didn't you just answer your own question ?

Cody

a reply to: cody599

In my mind, that belief is dark and satanic (serves the devil) - no question about it.

The point of this thread is for people who actually believe in the blood-sacrifice "ransom" to the devil to free us, to show why the all-powerful God would need to serve satan in this way and how is this not satanic (serving satan).

Go and look up "sacrifice" in the context of Jesus. Jesus died so we could live. I understand it and I'm not massively religious.

a reply to: arpgme

In my mind, that belief is dark and satanic

And there you nail it

'In your mind'

The rest of us are free to believe in freedom of thought.

Cody

It's a flawed story. Always was, always will be.

a reply to: cody599

And there you nail it

'In your mind'

The rest of us are free to believe in freedom of thought.

So because I believe it's a dark belief that means I don't believe in freedom of thought...? False assumption. You have the right to believe it. I have the right to believe it's dark.

a reply to: arpgme

Indeed you do

And I have the right to believe that a guy nailed to a cross does not give me a right to eternal bliss.

Rather my actions define my life

Cody

In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

He paid it with Himself to Himself

a reply to: arpgme

Wow. Where did you pick this thought up from? I have always figured it's a made up story, so it doesn't need to make sense, but i have never heard this twist before. Are there people who actually push this idea around?

a reply to: arpgme

Humans are quite capable of sinning without Satan's assistance.

IMO,the biblical account suggests Jesus died for the sins of man, by linking sin=Satan you're giving him too much credence. Yes, he might provide the opportunity to sin but mans free will decides whether to execute the act of sinning.

Again, my interpretation of the biblical account of the meaning behind the crucifixion suggests Jesus sacrificed himself of his own free will to humanity as a symbol of eternal life upon the Resurrection being completed as he foretold.

and that pissed Satan off to no end because it meant that humans could attain paradise - where Satan was kicked out of for his pride and can never again get back in, so his goal whilst he is God of earth is to drag as many humans away from attaining paradise as possible, because he is a jealous God, full of vengeance and hate for humans - again, this is my interpretation.

a reply to: arpgme
You need to read Anselm's "Cur Deus Homo". Translations exist.
The "ransom paid to Satan" theory was a suggestion made by Origen.
Anselm demolishes the idea, pointing out that Satan had no power to make any such claims.
So that book took it out of standard theology.

We sin and we will be punished because we have broken Gods laws
Satan is under the law and will suffer due to its sin

It has nothing to do with a blood sacrifice to the devil.

Never heard that before

The whole purpose of the first and second temples was that they were the only place on earth were the Jews could make sin offerings (sacrifices) to God. Sin can only be atoned for through sacrifice. This goes as far back as Cain and Abel. God asked each to make a sin offering, Abel sacrificed a sheep and Cain offered vegetables. God favored Abel because he offered the greater sacrifice and in a fit of jealousy Cain murdered Abel.

Sin offerings are made by important figures throughout the Old Testament. But you won't see many of them in the New Testament. This is because Christians believe that Jesus is the final sin offering - as the Christ his sacrifice is worthy enough to forgive all sins across all time, if only you are willing to accept him and be changed by him.

Orthodox Jews reject that Jesus was Christ and would still be making sin offerings with cattle, except the temple is gone. If they were able to build a new temple they would resume the practice of making sin offerings.

Sin offerings are part of the relationship that humans have with God. God is holy and pure, and sin cannot be tolerated in his presence. Which is why we must make an effort to put it away from us if we want to be closer to him. Satan has nothing to do with this process, except that he may try to manipulate people and impede their road to salvation.

a reply to: peskyhumans

Murder has everything to do with satan.

a reply to: arpgme

As the Christ, Jesus had the power to put to a stop his trial and crucifixion at any time. At his word the roman guards could have been struck dead, and at his word he could have laid judgment down upon all the Jews who rejected him.

He endured the whole process - the trial, the beatings, the mockery, being dragged through the streets, being nailed to the cross, because he understood it was a sacrifice for our sins. He wanted to give us a way to salvation because he loves us so much.

No doubt at the moment Jesus was raised up on the cross, Satan thought he had achieved victory. In fact it was the moment of his defeat. Whether or not anyone else deems Jesus' sacrifice unworthy is irrelevant. The fact is that God deemed his sacrifice worthy, and by accepting Jesus we have a path to salvation. That's all that matters.

This is a matter of faith. If you believe Jesus was the Christ then you would accept that he chose the crucifixion because the Christ would have had the power and authority to stop it. If you don't believe Jesus was the Christ then he would have had no choice in the matter. It's up to you to decide.

a reply to: arpgme

No the writing is even worse than that

The Jewish myths were blended with the superstitions surrounding the Jesus character which led to the tale about a god sending down it's 'son' who was also himself to create a loophole for a law he made. What?

And the best way to accomplish this contrived scheme? Have your son/yourself sacrificed to yourself so you can hold it against your loyal followers until the day you arbitrarily decide to destroy the world.

Even Prometheus made more sense...

a reply to: Sublimecraft

because he is a jealous God

Reminds me of Yahweh in the OT.

Exodus 20
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me

Just sayin'.

Genesis 3:15 "And I [God] will put enmity between thee [Satan] and the woman [Eve], and between thy seed [Cain's descendants] and her Seed [Jesus Christ]; It [Christ] shall bruise thy [Satan's] head, and thou [Satan] shalt bruise His [Christ's] heel."

Christ paid for our sins to make a way for US to come to the Father. God does not allow sin in Heaven. You won't make it there if you don't accept the free gift.

At least that's how the narrative goes. *shrugs shoulders*

a reply to: Sublimecraft

IMO,the biblical account suggests Jesus died for the sins of man, by linking sin=Satan

...dammit, Pavlov.

Yes, he might provide the opportunity to sin but mans free will decides whether to execute the act of sinning.

if we must be slaves to our baser instincts, then Jehovah should be slave to his own benevolence. since we cant help but do all this evil thanks to his witting designs, its only fair if he literally cant help but pick up after us at every turn.

the solution to this inconvenience being simple: stop playing games with "lesser" creatures and they wont be your responsibility.

Again, my interpretation of the biblical account of the meaning behind the crucifixion suggests Jesus sacrificed himself of his own free will to humanity as a symbol of eternal life upon the Resurrection being completed as he foretold.

requiring an innocent man to subject himself to that kind of torture, in order to foil evil incarnate, sounds pretty backward to me. like ending war by engaging in it.