The Right to Offend

a reply to: LesMisanthrope
I'm not a PC fan myself, but I sometimes cringe when the entitlement card is flaunted. There should be a balance between our rights and our motives or intentions.

Haven't read that Marquis de Sade book yet, I'll try to find a copy, only read The Bedroom Philosophers. Great thread.

Very good post, OP! Star, flag and favorite.

There is a lot of wisdom in learning to control the mechanisms of our consciousness, and there need to be more posts that encourage the individual to make changes within themselves. Yes, we are all "hard-wired" to one degree or another, but part of life is learning to overcome these things. There aren't any parts of ourselves that are impossible to master, except maybe VERY basic biological functions like eating and breathing, but then again there are stories of people who have mastery over even these things.

Something I want to add is that people seem to get offended by what negative traits they either consciously or unconsciously identify in themselves. For instance, go up to a stranger and call them a moldy doughnut. They will either laugh or ignore you. Call them a fatass, lazy leech and you are much more likely to offend them, but ONLY if they are insecure about these things. Sometimes people will get the most offended by the truth that they don't want to face, and I think protecting the right to tell people these things is very healthy for society as a whole.

Some thoughts this morning-

I always find myself having a curious look at peoples reactions to being judged negatively by others they do not respect.

LIke atheists who react with hostility to the religious claims of them being sinful and evil and going to hell...?
Why the heck do they even care? If they believe these people are delusional and place no importance on their judgement?

Or like the people I have seen today getting all irritated because of the Facebook thing of putting your photo in the french flag.... why care? If you think it is useless and meaningless, don't do it- but where is the emotion coming from?
It seems to be coming from an assumption that they themselves will be or are judged negatively for NOT doing it.

If Facebook stuff isn't important to you, why would you even feel anything in reaction to the thought of that?

I get offended when it is someone speaking or acting that I have respect for. Their opinion and attitudes towards me matter. A stranger on the net who thinks I am an idiot to the same extent I think they are? Nothing. Nothing is stirred.


This is what makes me suspect that the big dramatic shows of offense between strangers are more just games and the desire to play victim or victimizer, regardless of who the other playing with us is, and taking whatever opportunity arises.

Why does there exist offensive ideas in the first place? What conjures the emotions at the interpretation of certain words?

Free will is not the problem here. It's why we're offended which is the problem.

It's the way our world currently is. It is not organic, it is not symbiotic in nature. It is mechanical, it is planned chaos. Our ego's have created the mental structure around this chaos and takes it seriously. As if its worldview and its immediate surroundings has any effect on its emotional worth. As if worth is aa measurable, obtainable possession. It is merely a concept which our egos hold onto for dear life. Because the ego's life literally is its sense of value, its worth.

The problem is not what our egos do with free will. It's the egos themselves.

Freedom of speech has always meant that sometimes you are going to hear things you don't like. Being offended is a personal choice.

I don't know if there has to be a direct link between hearing something you don't like and being offended by it. But I do know that this generation will forever be referred to as Generation Butt-hurt.

a reply to: Bluesma

I get offended when it is someone speaking or acting that I have respect for. Their opinion and attitudes towards me matter.

That would mean that, basically, we shouldn't have to show respect for each other in society. It isn't important

What we think of each other is important. How we demonstrate that respect is important. Respect, and the lack of it shows up in society in many ways - as if we can't see that on a daily basis

When we attack another person - even if that person exists anonymously within a larger group - it's a sign of disrespect and we feel it

Even those of us that say we don't :-)

a reply to: Bluesma

I get offended when it is someone speaking or acting that I have respect for. Their opinion and attitudes towards me matter. A stranger on the net who thinks I am an idiot to the same extent I think they are? Nothing. Nothing is stirred.

The internet is troublesome with social interactions in general, as most of what is assumed about another person is a direct reflection and result of how little they know each other. If you have been called a name by someone at a computer hundreds or even thousands of miles away, someone who has never had the pleasure of being in your presence and doesn't even know what you look like, you can safely realize they are in fact speaking about no flesh and blood people, but an imaginary one in their mind.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I do have the right to offend. And it seems I exercise it often.

SnF OP

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Bluesma


That would mean that, basically, we shouldn't have to show respect for each other in society. It isn't important

No, I disagree. For one thing, there is respect in terms of behavior, and respect in terms of sentiment.
Like the discussion on morals versus ethics, in which morals are how you feel towards people you know, and ethics are how you treat people you do not know.

Choosing ethical behavior towards all people is part of being in a society.It effects one reputation and most of all, ones own self respect.
If someone else has a different set of ethics, it doesn't make me upset. I could intellectually judge the action according to my principles of ethics, but that is without an emotional hurt .
Ethical behavior is respectful action.

On the other hand, when we are familiar with someone, when we have sentiments of admiration, care, love or attachment, then their behavior towards us is no longer just a matter of their relation and place in the society,
it is directly impacting their relation to our self. It is normal that emotional reaction (morals) become involved.
Moral attachment is respectful sentiment.

I find it hard to believe anyone would claim that what a stranger says to them matters as much as what their mother or father or partner say to them!

a reply to: Bluesma

From what I have observed, it has to do with belief systems and desires/wants.

When you expect something, you put yourself at risk of being disappointed and being hurt. When you have an idea/belief about the world and that idea/belief gets trampled, it can hurt in the same manner... even if it's strangers that are trampling on it. Because strangers are part of your environment and they are probably part of your belief systems in that... for instance, you might believe that everyone should be treated equally and with respect- that includes strangers. What needs to be investigated is our own belief systems and... let's be honest, we must question how realistic they are- like do we hold onto unrealistic wants and desires, do we hold onto a disney world fantasy... or are we working towards knowing the truth? Maybe not everyone deserves to be treated equally- and realistically, not everyone is going to care what you say or think. If you believed in those things(expected them), maybe you wouldn't find yourself being so disappointed so often.

Not YOU personally, btw. I like you and I like your contributions, Bluesma.

But basically what I am trying to say is... you say it's a game but I believe that people are actually getting emotionally hurt by one another even though it's strangers doing the deed. I've been there, the feelings are real, lol.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

threads like this one really underscore how left is really just the other end of right, if that makes any sense. polarity is more perspective than anything else.

good to read your thoughts.

a reply to: hololeap

Yes to everything you just said. I love you.

a reply to: TzarChasm

threads like this one really underscore how left is really just the other end of right, if that makes any sense. polarity is more perspective than anything else.

True enough. I find that both sides (though I do not believe in any left/right spectrum) do not employ the same intellectual standards on themselves as they do on others, and the result of this is the glaring hypocrisy and double-standards apparent in the resulting rhetoric. It has become so common that it is nearly ubiquitous.

originally posted by: geezlouise
When you have an idea/belief about the world and that idea/belief gets trampled, it can hurt in the same manner... even if it's strangers that are trampling on it. Because strangers are part of your environment and they are probably part of your belief systems in that...

Okay, I hear you. Perhaps it is like that for some people. It is hard for me to imagine or empathize, but I will keep it in mind.
Remember that for half of my life (all of my adult life) I have been a foreigner in another land, which seems to have a culture of values and ethics diametrically opposed to those I grew up with.
I am so used to NO ONE sharing the same ideas about ethics and morals, that I think I have no expectations.
LIke criticizing someone is a way of showing you care about them (compliments are not), engaging one in an argument is a way of flirting, or getting to know them more intimately (remaining agreeable is how one stays distanced and closed to others).

I am so used to my ethics being MY ethics.... not "ours".... I feel no hesitation now to say if I judge some act as a bad idea, but only because it ultimately doesn't matter what I think. It's like stating that you like blue and not red. Every one has preferences, everyone has ethical preferences too.

(which is why I will always argue that the "Golden Rule" is hogwash)

But basically what I am trying to say is... you say it's a game but I believe that people are actually getting emotionally hurt by one another even though it's strangers doing the deed. I've been there, the feelings are real, lol.

Okay. Like I said, it is hard for me to put myself in those shoes, but you give me another possibility to keep in mind as I observe the world and others!

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

That old adage “the pen is mightier than the sword” is absurd when practiced literally. Anyone who has brought a pen to a sword fight will be left the only one bleeding.

Either you're trying to discredit your own OP - or you don't actually believe in the power and beauty of words

For someone that spends so much time trying to explain to us why words are unimportant, meaningless and ineffectual, you sure spend a lot of time trying to defend and control what they mean. And all of it with so many, many words...

a reply to: Bluesma

I find it hard to believe anyone would claim that what a stranger says to them matters as much as what their mother or father or partner say to them!

This is what I'm saying :-)

Clan first and foremost? Yes - this is completely natural. But, our family is easily extended. Not for everyone - I understand

Freedom to criticize - a very valuable thing

Criticize who? What would be the point if it didn't have an effect?

What would be the value of freedom of speech if it was all meaningless?

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis

Freedom to criticize - a very valuable thing

Criticize who? What would be the point if it didn't have an effect?

Two reasons (beyond the obvious one of giving feedback information for the person to be aware of):
When you give criticism, you are also giving information about yourself. You are exposing what your values and views are - whether the person agrees or not, they now know you a bit better.

Also, in the french culture, it shows you care about them. Sometimes that is the whole point, and whether the criticism or advice is embraced or not is irrelevant. Kind of like the way we say, "I'm sorry"? We don't always use it because we are guilty or at fault for something, it is sometimes just a way of indicating you are paying attention to them, you are concerned for them.

What would be the value of freedom of speech if it was all meaningless?

Meaningless , as I used it, refers to having no sentimental impact upon me.
But even when that is the case, the value remains, for the speaker, of self expression! I consider that important for us all. Holding things in makes you sick , passive aggressive, and or prone to built up hostility or frustration.

Sometimes speaking is done for the speaker.

a reply to: Bluesma

Sometimes speaking is done for the speaker.

I guess so

:-)

In the city where I live, on our buses - there is a sign posted that says: Please respect your bus driver

Well, that's asking a bit much I think. But I think it's possible to show people respect regardless. Funny that they had to post a sign...nobody knows the bus driver

If you say that the opinion of a stranger has no affect on you - what else can I do but take your word for it? But, it still doesn't seem likely. If you attack something someone believes - you attack them. It's still personal. This idea that we all have that our anonymity makes what we say less potent is - well, disingenuous at best

Great OP Le Mis, unfortunately those who need to read it most probably never will. They enjoy the idea of responding with violence to speech they dislike. They can give you multiple "reasons" for why they just had to go punch that guy for saying such-and-such but will never admit they have a choice about whether or not they respond at all. Or in civilized society instead of punching someone we'll have them sent away for "Hate speech". Still the same thin-skinned people not realizing it's their problem and not that of the person with the original offensive statement.

Very thoughtful and well argued post!

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Either you're trying to discredit your own OP - or you don't actually believe in the power and beauty of words

For someone that spends so much time trying to explain to us why words are unimportant, meaningless and ineffectual, you sure spend a lot of time trying to defend and control what they mean. And all of it with so many, many words...

You're the first person to ever call me out on this. You're absolutely right. I am a heavy reader and I write daily. Obviously I too am not immune to my own imagination when faced with words. So much the better, in my opinion. My ideas do not arise out of a void. When I speak of those under a spell and superstition of language, I am essentially referring to my own experiences.

But the beauty I see in language is the sole reason I do not wish to see any of it blamed and banned, and I will forever maintain its innocence. My attempt to discredit the power of words is mainly to demystify the superstition and the assumptions in myself. Personally this has helped me greatly and I will continue doing it. But I still hold that authorities limit expression they limit thought. Only when people do not fear words and language can they begin to utilize them freely and without restraint and boundary, which is a requirement of all free thought.