The madness of Orwellian reality

originally posted by: trifecta
Wow. Censorship. You are EXACTLY what ATS doesn't need. This attitude is worse than deliberate debunks and misinfo muppets.

It shouldn't matter how sensitive the subject or whether you are in agreement with it. ATS is supposed to be a place to audit any record.

This is exactly what I mean ...

It's an Orwellian world, we are no longer entitled to be wrong.

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
You can't deny the holocaust here on ATS.


Trash bin in 3...2...1...

Nor should we or should any sane person.

Eh I dunno.

Personally I prefer discussion, even if I disagree with the premise.


This thread will disappear though.

This is one of the rare things that really has no discussion. It is like discussing 'were you born?' Well of course you were born. End of story. 'Was there a holocaust?' Well of course there was a holocaust. End of story.

That may have been a poor example. But this is a thing that is not up for debate, is what I meant. And if it is not up for debate, it is not a thread topic.

It is sick to even discuss the fact that it may not have happened. Sick, wrong, offensive- inhuman is possibly the word I look for.

You mean like all the other conspiracies that were so wrong to discuss before we found out they were true?
You and I may not like it, but I don't believe in taking away this old woman's free speech. Any more than I would take away your right to say she's sick for denying it.

The only reason they shut people up is to hide something!

I'm passing no comment on whether the Holocaust actually happened in the way our history books record; because I wasn't there, but something I recently saw in a film about the nazi's caught my attention. I'm not sure who he was, but one of hitlers higher ups said "We must remove the money changers"
That sentence really caught my attention!

The holocaust......the only
Piece of history enforced by law
To even question it gets you attacked, despite tons and tons and tons of evidence that the numbers and events are wrong, spun, impossible or just plain lies

To even hint at ww2 history revisionism will get you quickly targeted by many posters the mods and even the owner of a site that purports to deny ignorance

Had a discussion about this before here under another account
After failing to counter my points about this, I susequently within mere minutes found myself Having posts removed previous threads closed and even my avatar deleted for having too many pixels!

It's almost comical

Yes it's funny that the rhetoric was against the Jewish bankers and businesses that had brought Germany to its knees
You know the same institutions individuals and families that crippled the rest of us in 2008 and continue to carry out financial terrorism daily under the protection of capitalist regimes


a reply to: VoidHawk

originally posted by: VoidHawk
The only reason they shut people up is to hide something!

Well, not necessarily so ... it may also be, because they are afraid of what may happen if they allow people to have different thoughts. Like, in Germany, many may hate Jews, so perhaps if people are allowed to argue against the holocust, it would urge people to violence against. This is a valid argument.

However, I think ... like the above, that by not allowing free speech ... it looks like people are hiding something. I maintain the ideology, that disallowing free speech is more dangerous than allowing it.

And this is the topic, so let's stay on topic. As many have pointed out, only by allowing and debating events, even events that are offensive to us and we don't believe. Will we ever grow. Our understanding grows, as we hear other peoples ideas ... but I also maintain, that by putting an 87 year old woman into jail for her opinions, she becomes a martyr. And to me, this is far more dangerous than allowing her to be wrong.

a reply to: bjarneorn

We are entitled to our opinions

Yes but not your not entitled to your own facts. This woman clearly doesn't understand that the burden of proof is on her.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I'm not discussing this now anyways this thread is for a different premise...

Than I think you should open up a thread, I'm interested in hearing your rationale for why you think the holocaust was not nearly as bad as they say it was.

originally posted by: reldra
a reply to: bjarneorn

It is apparently, not her first time. She always has, so you can't claim, say dementia.

If it makes you feel better, I think as an elderly woman, she will spend the time in a hospital or rest setting, she will not be digging rocks.



As for YOU...I just see you said 'so called ' holocaust. You should be digging rocks somewhere. You are NOT entitled to THAT opinion.
You should really go, now, and not return here. I mean it.

Wow. Someone has a real problem on the subject of the holocaust huh??

originally posted by: yorkshirelad

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: reldra

what happened during the holocaust?

Who was killed?

How many?

Were they targeted?

Who by?

Who funded it?



No discussion? Seriously?

They'll say that about 9/11 in 50 years and our grandkids probably won't be saying what you just said when they're told there is no discussion to be had.

The holocaust has been well documented. It is only the pathetic conspiracy obsessed people of today that go on about it as being some kind of "maybe". It is now ever so convenient for the deniers that the last few survivors and witnesses are dying off.

Actually Steven Spielberg created the USC shoah foundation to document actual testimonies on video from holocaust survivors in many languages, and in fact many of the testimonials themselves CONTRADICT the many myths of the holocaust.

Poison gas showers has been disproven.
Human lampshades disproved with DNA testing.
Human soap disproven.
Shrunken heads disproven.


The massive [youre not allowed to ask questions!] story that all official groups are permittd to regurgitate today is a bunch of utter nonsense.

Ask yourself this, How does 6,000,000 - 2,500,000 = 6,000,000 ??????

That's right, the six-million number was agreed upon before the fall of the USSR. But then Poland became a free country again, and researchers were able to finally exchange their work and at Auschwitz (in Poland) they found that the engraved memorial plaque was incorrect by a large margin (it said 4million, but they determined that a maximum of 1.5million people died there). So the number was corrected and a new plaque was made saying "about 1.5million"

So the death toll was REDUCED BY 2.5-MILLION, but no one ever bothered to update the TOTAL number. That's some very strange accounting indeed!! www.google.com...


So did the holocaust happen?? ABSOLUTELY, but not to the official story!!

WW2 was just like every other war before and since: A lot of atrocities committed on ALL SIDES, under stress, by young scared boys with big weapons and bloodthirsty leaders wanting to prove who had a bigger weiner...

Sure maybe the OS really has issues as any account of activity at any given time and sure some of it may have been covered up, etc.

However, there's no doubt in my mind that it happened, what ever the extent-which is likely massive- without even bringing it my personal experience with friends of the family.


Anyway, must mentioned I doubt the claims of this,

originally posted by: VoidHawk
The only reason they shut people up is to hide something!

I'm passing no comment on whether the Holocaust actually happened in the way our history books record; because I wasn't there, but something I recently saw in a film about the nazi's caught my attention. I'm not sure who he was, but one of hitlers higher ups said "We must remove the money changers"
That sentence really caught my attention!

originally posted by: AlphaPred
Yes it's funny that the rhetoric was against the Jewish bankers and businesses that had brought Germany to its knees
You know the same institutions individuals and families that crippled the rest of us in 2008 and continue to carry out financial terrorism daily under the protection of capitalist regimes


a reply to: VoidHawk

How true is that really, that they wanted to kill the money changers, when in fact the innocent people died and the lower on the ladder financially, not their enemy bankers, were tortured and killed instead?

originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
a reply to: bjarneorn
Yes but not your not entitled to your own facts. This woman clearly doesn't understand that the burden of proof is on her.

No, I don't agree on that.

Let's take this from another angle ... I can state, that YOU (assuming you are an American or British) murdered half a million Iraqi children. And I would state as a fact, that it is recorded in the UN, and that "Albright" stated that "this sacrifice" was worth it.

I'm sure you are a "humane" person, and would deny it. Of course, you could say that you are not responsible for the horrors of your government. And I'd say, "yes" you are, because your country is a democracy and you are part of the system that brought them to power. So, "you" are responsible for what they do on your behalf.

Now, assuming you are a logical human being. You'd deny the event, after all. And why? Because in your mind, you can't imagine your own people capable of such a deed. You'd question the authenticity of the UN report, of the people reporting it ... and you know what? That would make you a normal human being, in my eyes.

I maintain the posture, that any man who accept these facts without "question" and does not maintain a posture of doubt. Even if that person "accepts" it ... but only "for the moment". Because nobody believes such an act on another human being, unless they themselves can imagine themselves doing exactly this event. Are you capable of murdering half a million children? No, I don't think so ...

Should we "jail" all Americans, that deny it?

originally posted by: dreamingawake
How true is that really, that they wanted to kill the money changers, when in fact the innocent people died and the lower on the ladder financially, not their enemy bankers, were tortured and killed instead?

Ahhh ... now here is an angle, well worth discussing. But I'll leave it for a different debate.

a reply to: bjarneorn

I heard about this. Funny how Benjamin Netanyahu can get away with believing a different version of history, but not this lady

Because the rich quickly buggered off to London and New York and funded both sides of the war for profit
Damn they were noble
a reply to: dreamingawake

It's no surprise that someone was jailed for denying the Holocaust happened in the very country which perpetrated it. Germany has shifted polarity and doing the exact opposite of what it did in WW2. Instead of murdering millions they are now giving succour to millions from alien cultures who have no business being in Europe.

If you want evidence that the Holocaust happened, you need do no more than observe what Germany is doing today...then compare and contrast with Nazi Germany.

a reply to: bjarneorn

No, I don't agree on that. Let's take this from another angle ... I can state, that YOU (assuming you are an American or British) murdered half a million Iraqi children. And I would state as a fact, that it is recorded in the UN, and that "Albright" stated that "this sacrifice" was worth it.

I'm from neither country mentioned but I agree I'm still responsible for the murder of half a million Iraqi children.

I'm sure you are a "humane" person, and would deny it. Of course, you could say that you are not responsible for the horrors of your government. And I'd say, "yes" you are, because your country is a democracy and you are part of the system that brought them to power. So, "you" are responsible for what they do on your behalf.

Read the above. I personally take responsibility for their deaths as I allowed it to happen. In a democracy the choices your leaders make, you are indirectly responsible for them if you voted them in. Your partly responsible if you didn't get politically involved that is because you still benefit from their decisions to some extent. Also if you travel abroad you carry the burden of the countries reputation with you.

Now, assuming you are a logical human being. You'd deny the event, after all. And why? Because in your mind, you can't imagine your own people capable of such a deed. You'd question the authenticity of the UN report, of the people reporting it ... and you know what? That would make you a normal human being, in my eyes.

No I would not...America and Canada segregated the Japanese during WW2 into there own internment camps. They may not have killed anybody but according to the Geneva convention that already met parts of the criteria for a genocide. America did commit genocide in the end, they bombed two Japanese cities killing over 200,000 people in a few seconds and even further deaths were caused by the Ill effects of the fallout. Many Americans deny this event as being a genocide due to the exact reasons you mentioned above. I personally do not.

I maintain the posture, that any man who accept these facts without "question" and does not maintain a posture of doubt. Even if that person "accepts" it ... but only "for the moment". Because nobody believes such an act on another human being, unless they themselves can imagine themselves doing exactly this event. Are you capable of murdering half a million children? No, I don't think so ... Should we "jail" all Americans, that deny it?

I agree that's blind faith, I'm sorry but humans are capable of really atrocious things. If you or anyone has trouble accepting that don't project those feelings presumptuously on to everyone. Am I capable of murdering half a million children? If I had the means to do so yes I would be capable and so would anyone else. Doesn't mean I or anyone else would actually do it.

I concur overall we should keep these kind of opinion out in the open and not bar someone for their opinions. Limited free speech is not free speech at all.