Happy Vet Day: Real respect for vets is fighting western neo-imperialism and unjust wars.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

did you vote for Obama? I bet you did. You did it out of idealism. You did it because you thought you were making the right decision and making the right choice.

how much remorse are you feeling towards wasting your vote on him?

Any?

None?

Do you see the comparison?

I supported him, and yes I most definitely do feel remorse. Want to know why? Because of the exact same topic. He is still supporting the neo-imperialistic policies in Libya and Syria, overthrowing and trying to overthrow respectively their governments for power and regional control.
And you know what, I have told people that and protested. So my conscious is clear. We were misled by him. I wouldn't vote again for him.

This is the same for vets and soldiers. We were all lied to about American wars and foreign policy. Once you are led to the information that this is true, there is only one moral path: Stop supporting the policies and wars, do not support people joining the military, and be vocal about the truth. You are NOT to blame for being manipulated in the first place.

My entire op was centered around real respect for vets and soldiers is not supporting them being lied to, manipulated, or sent to unjust wars to be maimed or killed. I think that this assertion is unassailable if someone really meditates on it, assuming that the foreign wars are mostly illegitimate.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

War is always wrong. You don't need to be a vet-hating liberal to see that.

The most anti-war people ARE vets, because, unlike you, vets actually get KILLED in war.


Yet you find issue with acting out ideologically, even though you admit to DOING THE EXACT SAME THING.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

did you vote for Obama? I bet you did. You did it out of idealism. You did it because you thought you were making the right decision and making the right choice.

how much remorse are you feeling towards wasting your vote on him?

Any?

None?

Do you see the comparison?

I supported him, and yes I most definitely do feel remorse. Want to know why? Because of the exact same topic. He is still supporting the neo-imperialistic policies in Libya and Syria, overthrowing and trying to overthrow respectively their governments for power and regional control.

And you know what, I have told people that and protested. So my conscious is clear.

We were misled by him. Now that someone knows, they are still moral if they rescind support and are forthright.

This is the same for vets and soldiers. We were all lied to about American wars and foreign policy. Once you are led to the information that this is true, there is only one moral path: Stop supporting the policies and wars, do not support people joining the military, and be vocal about the truth.

Do you now see the comparison?

Many people on here refuse to acknowledge that the wars are wrong and that the vets are NOT serving our freedom nor self-defense, but instead something else. That is not moral nor honest.

Our Government may not be moral or honest... in fact, I have no illusions... 90% of everything that spews from the "Beltway" is BS...

However...

Never forget the loss of life... the crippling injuries... the sheer trauma that our vets have faced... you can berate our collective world powers for sending young men to their deaths, but NEVER berate the man with the courage to fight for his country...

And as Forrest Gump might say... "that's all I got to say about that... "

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

War is always wrong. You don't need to be a vet-hating liberal to see that.

The most anti-war people ARE vets, because, unlike you, vets actually get KILLED in war.


Yet you find issue with acting out ideologically, even though you admit to DOING THE EXACT SAME THING.

I have no problem with someone acting ideologically, as long as it is INFORMED.

Engaging in war for ideology better be informed by the facts, because listen boy, people are going to die. Don't pull this childish bull about vets having feelings or claimed noble intentions. If some young idiot goes off to war based on an ignorant view of the world, it is no excuse.

I can promise you that the families of the 200,000 dead civilians in Iraq and over 1,000,000 dead civilians in Vietnam do NOT want to hear such arguments.

Once again, and I will have to stop responding to comments if they don't really acknowledge my points:

1) Most people are lied to or manipulated into war. This is true via history. Please show some indication you have historical knowledge regarding this. Therefore, it is the leaders and not vets who bear the responsibility mostly.

2) However, because soldiers are engaging in one of the most destructive activities known to man, they don't get a complete get out of jail free card. You are responsible for educating yourself before going off to kill or engage in such an act. Furthermore, once one DOES become aware that our foreign policy is not for justice, then you have only one moral option left: Stop supporting the wars and get out as soon as you can. Stop recommending and supporting friends and families enlisting. Stop shutting down people like me who are demanding discussion around it.

So, once you realize that your ideology and the reasons we went to war were wrong, then it is moral to then stop support. Just like I have done with Obama.

originally posted by: madmac5150

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

did you vote for Obama? I bet you did. You did it out of idealism. You did it because you thought you were making the right decision and making the right choice.

how much remorse are you feeling towards wasting your vote on him?

Any?

None?

Do you see the comparison?

I supported him, and yes I most definitely do feel remorse. Want to know why? Because of the exact same topic. He is still supporting the neo-imperialistic policies in Libya and Syria, overthrowing and trying to overthrow respectively their governments for power and regional control.

And you know what, I have told people that and protested. So my conscious is clear.

We were misled by him. Now that someone knows, they are still moral if they rescind support and are forthright.

This is the same for vets and soldiers. We were all lied to about American wars and foreign policy. Once you are led to the information that this is true, there is only one moral path: Stop supporting the policies and wars, do not support people joining the military, and be vocal about the truth.

Do you now see the comparison?

Many people on here refuse to acknowledge that the wars are wrong and that the vets are NOT serving our freedom nor self-defense, but instead something else. That is not moral nor honest.

Our Government may not be moral or honest... in fact, I have no illusions... 90% of everything that spews from the "Beltway" is BS...

However...

Never forget the loss of life... the crippling injuries... the sheer trauma that our vets have faced... you can berate our collective world powers for sending young men to their deaths, but NEVER berate the man with the courage to fight for his country...

And as Forrest Gump might say... "that's all I got to say about that... "

I didn't berate anyone. I laid the blame at the door of the leaders.

This is called a discussion.

Also, again, these soldiers are not fighting for us nor our collective community. They are being sent to their deaths to fight for a trans-national empire.

Saying that the leaders themselves, by lying and using the vets, are the ones not supporting the troops, shouldn't be offensive. Real compassion for the vets and their families is doing exactly what I am doing, protesting those wars and leaders. Trying to wake people up so that more people aren't sent to be maimed or killed or to maim and kill. By not discussing it, people give the government continued license to do these things.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

You just don't get it.

You fail to understand.

That's alright. Not everyone is intelligent.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

You just don't get it.

You fail to understand.

That's alright. Not everyone is intelligent.

Pardon. It's clear you aren't able to go through a series of points, and it's gone over your head.

I understand you very clearly, that you think that someone's inner ideology, no matter how misled it is, or misinformed, legitimizes their engagement in war.

What do you disagree with in the actual op? It's crystal clear about where I lay the blame.

People like you think you are making some kind of smart point about how people shouldn't discuss all of this because vets may be hurt or vets served their country, but in reality not only is it logically fallacious it's also morally reprehensible to have such a position. It also only serves the powers that be to deflect the discussion away from the use of vets as cannon fodder and evil of the wars, manipulating the discussion to be "OMG the vets might be hurt by these discussions." Congratulations for being a "useful idiot" sir.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

You just don't get it.

You fail to understand.

That's alright. Not everyone is intelligent.

Pardon. It's clear you aren't able to go through a series of points, and it's gone over your head.

I understand you very clearly, that you think that someone's inner ideology, no matter how misled it is, or misinformed, legitimizes their engagement in war.

You attempted to make a silly point about Obama support, when in actuality I apply the exact same standard, i.e. once one realizes the action they were misled into is wrong, they must rescind support. This obviously went over your head.

Did your rescinding of support for Obama remove your vote?

No.

What's done is done. You can only move forward.

Like our vets. Who enter service, take the oath and can only hope that the civilian leaders will do the right thing.

They do so for idealistic purposes. They (we) do so because they believe in giving back to the nation that has provided so much.

But people will always find a reason and justification to spit on us.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

You just don't get it.

You fail to understand.

That's alright. Not everyone is intelligent.

Pardon. It's clear you aren't able to go through a series of points, and it's gone over your head.

I understand you very clearly, that you think that someone's inner ideology, no matter how misled it is, or misinformed, legitimizes their engagement in war.

You attempted to make a silly point about Obama support, when in actuality I apply the exact same standard, i.e. once one realizes the action they were misled into is wrong, they must rescind support. This obviously went over your head.

Did your rescinding of support for Obama remove your vote?

No.

What's done is done. You can only move forward.

Like our vets. Who enter service, take the oath and can only hope that the civilian leaders will do the right thing.

They do so for idealistic purposes. They (we) do so because they believe in giving back to the nation that has provided so much.

But people will always find a reason and justification to spit on us.

Many people may think they are fighting for the ideologies of democracy, freedom, etc. But if it is demonstrable that the war is actually NOT for that, and often the opposite, then what good are such ideologies in that context. This is like me joining the Nazis and saying "I joined because of my ideology of loving all people and universal human rights." i'd in fact be joining an org that violates my very claimed ideologies.

I get your point about some soldiers joining the military and then later being sent off to some war, so maybe they didn't plan on that.

But this is why joining the military should only happen based on lots of very serious study. I CAN't join the military because I KNOW the US military is often used for nefarious purposes. Doing so would violate my very real commitment to peace, human rights, freedom, and so on

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

No. Your hatred has been called out. Feel free to ignore me. I will ALWAYS support our vets.

I WON'T put any caveats on it.

Happy Veterans Day.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

No. Your hatred has been called out. Feel free to ignore me. I will ALWAYS support our vets.

I WON'T put any caveats on it.

Happy Veterans Day.

There was no hatred, and your response is ridiculous.

I don't think someone being objective would think my op was hating vets.

Good day..

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: chuck258
Wow, you truly have zero respect. How about a simple "While I do not agree with how our goverment handles foreign affairs, today is about the Veterans who signed their life away in defense of our country"

No, you had to give a paragraph with a disclosure that you work with Veterans so your not anti-veteran, then insert a 600 word rant about how evil the US is with 'neo-imperialism' and 'unjust wars'

Yes, your thread is not overtly Anti-Veteran, but you are using a holiday designed to celebrate and respect them as a Sabot to launch your Anti-US propaganda and rhetoric. You couldn't wait until tomorrow? Or have posted this yesterday (seems like you've had a lot to say and been thinking about this for a while)

Bad taste, completely disrespectful, even if not directed at Veterans.


I'm not commenting on the point of your argument. While my view is a little less biased, I do agree that the US really needs to just let the Middle East destroy itself and we need to adopt a more isolationist position in the world. I just don't agree with you using Veterans Day as a means to create a thread to advance your message. You wouldn't make a thread on Mexican Independence Day celebrating the people of Mexico then turn around and start telling Mexicans how corrupt their country is, why the hell would you do it with our own VEterans? That is the point I am trying to make here.

I laid out very clearly why such policies are the REAL disrespect to veterans and soldiers. They are being used as cannon fodder by the elite, lied to, and then thrown away after they come back.

We are talking about veterans and soldiers because TODAY IS VETERANS DAY!!! What better of a day to discuss how they are being used and abused.

The reason today is appropriate to discuss this is that the government and media parade about celebrating veterans and soldiers, while lying through their teeth and showing their hypocrisy. I think that we won't really get an honest look at all of this until people stop glorifying military service, framing it as "defending our freedoms," and shutting down conversation with such things as "support the troops."

Do you realize that Vets of the Iraq and Afghan wars are not the only Vets in our country? There are nearly a million WW2 Vets still alive today, was that an unjust Neo Imperial blah blah whatever you're ranting about about US involvement in World War II?

Also, I like how you are completely condemning Veterans for their supposed unjust actions because of two conflicts you don't agree with. This only highlights your utter ignorance even more. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the entirety of service personnel s jobs is not just fighting Iraq and Afghanistan. You have no idea how much international humanitarian aid the US military does. Maybe you didn't hear about the thousands of US troops that went to help Africa during their recent Ebola crisis. Maybe you didn't hear about the US military helping Japan after their nuclear meltdown at Fukishima? What about the 20,000 US personnel that assisted Haiti after their devastsatig Earthquake? Maybe you forgot about the 3000 relief missions the US flew over Indonesia after their Tsunami? Maybe the Hospital ship that went their just doesn't exist.



THESE ARE the people you are insulting when you launch your tirade about how you "can't support them because they fought a war for the international bankster elite blah blah blah" You are abusing the holiday that is designed to honor these service women and men who spent months away from home missing holidays and birthdays to give aid to those affected by dire circumstance, and who even after gyiving the aid continue on with their mission for several more months. That is why I take offense to your using of Veterans day as a shield to insert your own beliefs. That makes you a hypocrite too. You are sitting here condemning everyone else's use of supporting the troops because they are just doing their job to end arguments about the Iraq and Afghan war while literally simultaneously using "your" "defense" of the troops by claiming their service is being abused by some shadowy government types. . . . . . While also simultaneously saying you support the troops. . . .. but don't because they are allowing themselves to be used or other such nonsense.

Don't give yourself a hernia trying to use opposite, mutually exclusive points of view to further your agenda.


Either way, I dint care that you have your opinion, but you have just completely disrespected Veterans and their service by using the holiday designed to honor them and what they do (which again, whether you believe it or not includes more than shooting and getting shot at, much more) as a shield against dissenting viewpoints. You could have waited until tommorow to post this topic and left Veterans completely out of it as they have little, if anything to do with the views you hold. As I said in my Mexican Analogy, you can't celebrate Mexican Independence Day with a bunch of Mexicans and then proceed to tell them that they live in a horribly corrupt country and that it's a shifty place to live, you are literally doing the same thing, only it's Veterans and the US government instead of Mexican Citizens and the Government.

Always find it funny how the Progressive types like yourself can pull offensive aspects, hidden meanings and micro aggression out of simple every day things, but when it comes to basic u derstanding of what it is that the US military does on a very regular basis and is completely out in the open if your not to lazy to look for it, you completely fail at doing so. Lazy Liberal Hypocrites.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

"That's all I got to say about that... "

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

I am no big fan of "defense."
It's good to be prepared, to deter aggression.
Like the bible says, killing is a sin.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: onthedownlow
Real respect is honoring a veteran for the selfless sacrifices they make, it has absolutely nothing to do with politics. Pull your head out of your ass and just say thanks.

My sincerest thank you to all who have served, you have my deepest gratitude!

ETA- I can not tell you every veteran's reason for serving, but I can say without a doubt that it is nearly always for a just and noble cause, and seldomly for evil and never for the elites. It is a damn shame that anyone should try to diminish the selfless acts of our bravest.

I suggest that you read through my op again, and each point. Basically, you are mimicking the Bush-era "support the troops" deflection whenever anyone criticizes war.

I've very clearly said that most soldiers are not at fault, but are lied to and manipulated.

The point is, those wars are not for really any of the noble ideals that many vets may have. This is ATS. Deny ignorance, not embrace it.

Also, trying to conversely legitimize those wars by speaking ONLY of the innocence of the soldiers and refusing to discuss the real negative impact of these wars is intellectually dishonest at best and propaganda more likely.

I get that most vets and their families have very little ability to objectively look at the real nature of foreign policy. Why? Because to do so is to realize the great evil they have participated in, and it makes them realize that their friends got killed for a non noble purpose. The amount of cognitive dissonance this creates militates against someone honestly looking at both war and their role in it.

Maybe you can voice your opinion in a less disrespectful way, but why? You have it all figured out, and what a grand gesture, to throw the courageous under the bus to better suit your point. I respectfully disagree with your point, but your lack of respect for others is distasteful. I am of the belief that both Iraq wars and the war in Afghanistan were for noble causes. Regardless, men do things according to their own code. You believe your post is for a noble cause, but you serve your own agenda, where is the honor in that?

originally posted by: onthedownlow

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: onthedownlow
Real respect is honoring a veteran for the selfless sacrifices they make, it has absolutely nothing to do with politics. Pull your head out of your ass and just say thanks.

My sincerest thank you to all who have served, you have my deepest gratitude!

ETA- I can not tell you every veteran's reason for serving, but I can say without a doubt that it is nearly always for a just and noble cause, and seldomly for evil and never for the elites. It is a damn shame that anyone should try to diminish the selfless acts of our bravest.

I suggest that you read through my op again, and each point. Basically, you are mimicking the Bush-era "support the troops" deflection whenever anyone criticizes war.

I've very clearly said that most soldiers are not at fault, but are lied to and manipulated.

The point is, those wars are not for really any of the noble ideals that many vets may have. This is ATS. Deny ignorance, not embrace it.

Also, trying to conversely legitimize those wars by speaking ONLY of the innocence of the soldiers and refusing to discuss the real negative impact of these wars is intellectually dishonest at best and propaganda more likely.

I get that most vets and their families have very little ability to objectively look at the real nature of foreign policy. Why? Because to do so is to realize the great evil they have participated in, and it makes them realize that their friends got killed for a non noble purpose. The amount of cognitive dissonance this creates militates against someone honestly looking at both war and their role in it.

Maybe you can voice your opinion in a less disrespectful way, but why? You have it all figured out, and what a grand gesture, to throw the courageous under the bus to better suit your point. I respectfully disagree with your point, but your lack of respect for others is distasteful. I am of the belief that both Iraq wars and the war in Afghanistan were for noble causes. Regardless, men do things according to their own code. You believe your post is for a noble cause, but you serve your own agenda, where is the honor in that?

Afghanistan was possibly legitimate based on 911, assuming the gov story is true.

Iraq had nothing to do with it, and was NOT for a noble cause. WHAT NOBLE CAUSE? It was a pre-emptive war of aggression. That's a war crime if you didn't know it, according to international law.

I am being honorable, because I searched out the truth for years, across the world, and am saying it. I am respecting the troops by calling out those who abuse and use them. You, are legitimizing those who abuse them by simply paraphrasing the same old propaganda that got the soldiers sent to die in the first place.

There is nothing honorable in supporting the lies that make our brethren die in war for non-noble causes, sorry. I can't pull punches when it comes to innocent people dying, and neither can you if you want to be moral.

originally posted by: chuck258

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: chuck258
Wow, you truly have zero respect. How about a simple "While I do not agree with how our goverment handles foreign affairs, today is about the Veterans who signed their life away in defense of our country"

No, you had to give a paragraph with a disclosure that you work with Veterans so your not anti-veteran, then insert a 600 word rant about how evil the US is with 'neo-imperialism' and 'unjust wars'

Yes, your thread is not overtly Anti-Veteran, but you are using a holiday designed to celebrate and respect them as a Sabot to launch your Anti-US propaganda and rhetoric. You couldn't wait until tomorrow? Or have posted this yesterday (seems like you've had a lot to say and been thinking about this for a while)

Bad taste, completely disrespectful, even if not directed at Veterans.


I'm not commenting on the point of your argument. While my view is a little less biased, I do agree that the US really needs to just let the Middle East destroy itself and we need to adopt a more isolationist position in the world. I just don't agree with you using Veterans Day as a means to create a thread to advance your message. You wouldn't make a thread on Mexican Independence Day celebrating the people of Mexico then turn around and start telling Mexicans how corrupt their country is, why the hell would you do it with our own VEterans? That is the point I am trying to make here.

I laid out very clearly why such policies are the REAL disrespect to veterans and soldiers. They are being used as cannon fodder by the elite, lied to, and then thrown away after they come back.

We are talking about veterans and soldiers because TODAY IS VETERANS DAY!!! What better of a day to discuss how they are being used and abused.

The reason today is appropriate to discuss this is that the government and media parade about celebrating veterans and soldiers, while lying through their teeth and showing their hypocrisy. I think that we won't really get an honest look at all of this until people stop glorifying military service, framing it as "defending our freedoms," and shutting down conversation with such things as "support the troops."

Do you realize that Vets of the Iraq and Afghan wars are not the only Vets in our country? There are nearly a million WW2 Vets still alive today, was that an unjust Neo Imperial blah blah whatever you're ranting about about US involvement in World War II?

Also, I like how you are completely condemning Veterans for their supposed unjust actions because of two conflicts you don't agree with. This only highlights your utter ignorance even more. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the entirety of service personnel s jobs is not just fighting Iraq and Afghanistan. You have no idea how much international humanitarian aid the US military does. Maybe you didn't hear about the thousands of US troops that went to help Africa during their recent Ebola crisis. Maybe you didn't hear about the US military helping Japan after their nuclear meltdown at Fukishima? What about the 20,000 US personnel that assisted Haiti after their devastsatig Earthquake? Maybe you forgot about the 3000 relief missions the US flew over Indonesia after their Tsunami? Maybe the Hospital ship that went their just doesn't exist.



THESE ARE the people you are insulting when you launch your tirade about how you "can't support them because they fought a war for the international bankster elite blah blah blah" You are abusing the holiday that is designed to honor these service women and men who spent months away from home missing holidays and birthdays to give aid to those affected by dire circumstance, and who even after gyiving the aid continue on with their mission for several more months. That is why I take offense to your using of Veterans day as a shield to insert your own beliefs. That makes you a hypocrite too. You are sitting here condemning everyone else's use of supporting the troops because they are just doing their job to end arguments about the Iraq and Afghan war while literally simultaneously using "your" "defense" of the troops by claiming their service is being abused by some shadowy government types. . . . . . While also simultaneously saying you support the troops. . . .. but don't because they are allowing themselves to be used or other such nonsense.

Don't give yourself a hernia trying to use opposite, mutually exclusive points of view to further your agenda.


Either way, I dint care that you have your opinion, but you have just completely disrespected Veterans and their service by using the holiday designed to honor them and what they do (which again, whether you believe it or not includes more than shooting and getting shot at, much more) as a shield against dissenting viewpoints. You could have waited until tommorow to post this topic and left Veterans completely out of it as they have little, if anything to do with the views you hold. As I said in my Mexican Analogy, you can't celebrate Mexican Independence Day with a bunch of Mexicans and then proceed to tell them that they live in a horribly corrupt country and that it's a shifty place to live, you are literally doing the same thing, only it's Veterans and the US government instead of Mexican Citizens and the Government.

Always find it funny how the Progressive types like yourself can pull offensive aspects, hidden meanings and micro aggression out of simple every day things, but when it comes to basic u derstanding of what it is that the US military does on a very regular basis and is completely out in the open if your not to lazy to look for it, you completely fail at doing so. Lazy Liberal Hypocrites.

I give up on the pro-war and claimed "pro-vet" people both on ATS and in 'Merica. It is beyond rational discussion. It is beyond facts or history. It's purely emotion based on propaganda. It seems that many of you simply cannot have a rational debate about any of it.

I will say this one more time, you guys disrespect former and future soldiers when you refuse to discuss the way in which they are manipulated and lied to into service.

I cannot continue this conversation, because too many people are embracing ignorance, not denying it, and now it's just going in circles of propaganda. I've protested the military-industrial complex both on here and in public non-anonymously. I've protested the wars, and my conscious is clear. One day you may have to answer to a higher power for what you have supported.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Iraq was a follow up to a war that occurred in the 90's. Saddam's ability to make war was seriously diminished, but he used his power to commit genocide in the North, against Kurds that were promised US backing in the 90's. 21? Violations of the ceases fire. He did have WMD.

I agree that we use our military selectively for advantageous reasons, but there is still value in nation building.

I do disagree with foreign policy on occasion, but I don't pretend to understand all the reasons we use troops in combat, I have to rely on faith in elected officials. Bush made it a point to meet with the families of the fallen, he was in no means isolated from the harsh realities of war... that says a lot to me.

a reply to: onthedownlow

Ignorance is forming a position with out all the facts or a disregard for the opposing issues.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

I can imagine you have drawn pay from the FED or some other countries coffers.