Happy Vet Day: Real respect for vets is fighting western neo-imperialism and unjust wars.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

You have this all wrong! Veteran's Day is about service to this country not whether we were nation building or whatever reason that you complain about. This about people not nations or national policies. This about people who fought and died in the service to this country nothing else.

You are making the same mistake as the people who threw urine and feces on returning soldiers from Vietnam. The soldiers are not responsible for national policy! Many of the soldier were not there voluntarily but by transcription.

If you have a bitch about what this country does DO NOT do it by using vets as your vehicle to complain.

originally posted by: buddah6
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

You have this all wrong! Veteran's Day is about service to this country not whether we were nation building or whatever reason that you complain about. This about people not nations or national policies. This about people who fought and died in the service to this country nothing else.

You are making the same mistake as the people who threw urine and feces on returning soldiers from Vietnam. The soldiers are not responsible for national policy! Many of the soldier were not there voluntarily but by transcription.

If you have a bitch about what this country does DO NOT do it by using vets as your vehicle to complain.

I respectfully disagree.

Veterans have fought for many things. Some fought, because they love to fight. Born for battle. Some fought for belief. Some fought for those that stood there, at that moment. But all fought because they said they would. OP, I read your post. And I agree. But don't talk about or thank a veteran. Unless, you laced that boot. Warriors don't have time for philosophical thinking.... We followed orders. Sugar plantations, canals, oil, territory, slaves...democracy..blah, blah and blah. You couldn't post your drivel...without us/them having been there. But? I so, get your point. I recommend you find a real American and vote for them. Before you too, have to become a soldier.

originally posted by: murphy22
Veterans have fought for many things. Some fought, because they love to fight. Born for battle. Some fought for belief. Some fought for those that stood there, at that moment. But all fought because they said they would. OP, I read your post. And I agree. But don't talk about or thank a veteran. Unless, you laced that boot. Warriors don't have time for philosophical thinking.... We followed orders. Sugar plantations, canals, oil, territory, slaves...democracy..blah, blah and blah. You couldn't post your drivel...without us/them having been there. But? I so, get your point. I recommend you find a real American and vote for them. Before you too, have to become a soldier.

Of course some vets have fought for good things. Nobody is saying otherwise. But we should never whitewash it when they haven't. War is a last resort. And when it is used for anything other than a great just need, it is about as profound of an evil as they come. War means vast death, human rights violations, destruction or retardation of regions or cultures, lost generations, etc.

Also, it isn't true that we cannot discuss things unless we have been a soldier. This is like saying I can't criticize oil companies or understand the energy system unless I have worked for BP.

Real respect is honoring a veteran for the selfless sacrifices they make, it has absolutely nothing to do with politics. Pull your head out of your ass and just say thanks.

My sincerest thank you to all who have served, you have my deepest gratitude!

ETA- I can not tell you every veteran's reason for serving, but I can say without a doubt that it is nearly always for a just and noble cause, and seldomly for evil and never for the elites. It is a damn shame that anyone should try to diminish the selfless acts of our bravest.

a reply to: chuck258

My dad and my brother and I all talked to each other today. we're all vets.

It's okay if people want to hate on us. We belong to a fraternity that most just don't understand.

To all my brother and sister vets, I will always have your back.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

No, you are right. It's nothing like like that.

Today I spent sitting and listening, some talking, but mostly listening, to various veterans from the different wars that American soldiers have fought in.

One of them was a fine old gentleman who joined the Marine Corp as a sixteen yr old kid in 1932, and was stationed in China prior to WWII, and got to witness the atrocities we hear so little about that were perpetrated by Japan.

He's a tad bit deaf. Mostly blind. But as alert as anyone I know.

He was at Pearl Harbour on Dec. 7th, 1941, stationed at the Marine Air Field there, Kaneohe, I think. Later was on Guadalcanal. Betio. Iwo. Okinawa. Needless to say, he's seen the dragon up close.

Later, he was in Korea. Missed Chosin, oddly enough, I think he considers himself unlucky that he missed it.

He was wounded three times, once on Guadalcanal. On Betio. ...and in Korea, on a little hill that didn't even have a number, much less a name. He called it "a god forsaken frozen mole hill."

He's fought the Japanese, the Chinese, and the Koreans--and hates none of them.

He retired in 1962, about a year before I was born. Thirty years, most of it in combat theatres.

The other two veterans at our little confab were his sons, both pushing seventy... One was Army, the other Marine. Both saw combat in SE Asia. Both in Vietnam, though at different times.

They both have children who are serving as I write this, one in the Afghan mountains as a member of SpecOps. The other is, maybe, flying over Syria. I wish them, and their fellows, well, and will pray for their safe return, as quickly as humanly possible.

All three were amazingly candid about their experiences. As though no one wants to listen to their stories. Which is, I suppose, only too true in this era of political correctness run amuk.

All I said to them was good morning, and may I sit here, and thank you. Next thing I know, it's nearly one o'clock, and I've been sitting and listening for nearly five hours. What a remarkable trio of gentlemen, and I'll be forever grateful for the...trust is the only word I can come up with. I guess they felt that maybe I'd judge them, or something.

How can I, someone who's never served a day in uniform, much less seen the combat they've seen, possibly have the temerity to judge them harshly?

As they got up to go home, the Dad shook my hand and said thanks for putting up with our stories.

I couldn't talk, what's to say that wouldn't be platitude?

Three generations, and he's thanking me? They've shed their blood for me, though I'm fairly sure they weren't thinking that at the time.

No, sir, thank you.

My family has served in the US military for six generations. Some of my ever so great, greats saw the birth of our nation from behind the muzzle of a Kentucky long rifle. Fought on both sides during the Civil War (I'll bet that made for some interesting holiday conversations). The Spanish-American war. The Boxer Rebellion. World War One. World War Two. Korea. South-east Asia. Iraq. Afghanistan. Since I've got cousins still serving, probably elsewhere all too soon.

They didn't make the political decisions that put them there, they merely follow their oaths.

That family, and my own, are, if America has one, the warrior culture of America. Make no mistake, we have one. Those men represent it. My father does. My grandfather. All my siblings. Most of my cousins. The citizen-soldier.

My undying respect and admiration continues unabated for these fine young men and women, regardless of what I may feel about the idiocy that places them in harms way in places many can't even find on a map, much less care about.

All my respect.

originally posted by: onthedownlow
Real respect is honoring a veteran for the selfless sacrifices they make, it has absolutely nothing to do with politics. Pull your head out of your ass and just say thanks.

My sincerest thank you to all who have served, you have my deepest gratitude!

ETA- I can not tell you every veteran's reason for serving, but I can say without a doubt that it is nearly always for a just and noble cause, and seldomly for evil and never for the elites. It is a damn shame that anyone should try to diminish the selfless acts of our bravest.

I suggest that you read through my op again, and each point. Basically, you are mimicking the Bush-era "support the troops" deflection whenever anyone criticizes war.

I've very clearly said that most soldiers are not at fault, but are lied to and manipulated.

The point is, those wars are not for really any of the noble ideals that many vets may have. This is ATS. Deny ignorance, not embrace it.

Also, trying to conversely legitimize those wars by speaking ONLY of the innocence of the soldiers and refusing to discuss the real negative impact of these wars is intellectually dishonest at best and propaganda more likely.

I get that most vets and their families have very little ability to objectively look at the real nature of foreign policy. Why? Because to do so is to realize the great evil they have participated in, and it makes them realize that their friends got killed for a non noble purpose. The amount of cognitive dissonance this creates militates against someone honestly looking at both war and their role in it.

originally posted by: chuck258
Wow, you truly have zero respect. How about a simple "While I do not agree with how our goverment handles foreign affairs, today is about the Veterans who signed their life away in defense of our country"

No, you had to give a paragraph with a disclosure that you work with Veterans so your not anti-veteran, then insert a 600 word rant about how evil the US is with 'neo-imperialism' and 'unjust wars'

Yes, your thread is not overtly Anti-Veteran, but you are using a holiday designed to celebrate and respect them as a Sabot to launch your Anti-US propaganda and rhetoric. You couldn't wait until tomorrow? Or have posted this yesterday (seems like you've had a lot to say and been thinking about this for a while)

Bad taste, completely disrespectful, even if not directed at Veterans.


I'm not commenting on the point of your argument. While my view is a little less biased, I do agree that the US really needs to just let the Middle East destroy itself and we need to adopt a more isolationist position in the world. I just don't agree with you using Veterans Day as a means to create a thread to advance your message. You wouldn't make a thread on Mexican Independence Day celebrating the people of Mexico then turn around and start telling Mexicans how corrupt their country is, why the hell would you do it with our own VEterans? That is the point I am trying to make here.

Thank you...

The OP's tagline starts as a thanks to us vets, yet his post berates us for participating in foreign wars.

Guess what... didn't have a choice. I joined the U.S.A.F. before the first Gulf War. I did not choose to end up there... I just did. I joined because of my love of freedom, AND the Constitution of the United States, which I swore to defend.

My oldest son is now serving in the USAF, and I hope like hell that he understands the oath that he took...

To post this OP on Veteran's Day is a clear slap in the face to all vets, no matter what country they fought for.

To all my veteran brothers and sisters out there... you have my respect and gratitude...

originally posted by: seagull
Today I spent sitting and listening, some talking, but mostly listening, to various veterans from the different wars that American soldiers have fought in.

One of them was a fine old gentleman who joined the Marine Corp as a sixteen yr old kid in 1932, and was stationed in China prior to WWII, and got to witness the atrocities we hear so little about that were perpetrated by Japan.

He's a tad bit deaf. Mostly blind. But as alert as anyone I know.

He was at Pearl Harbour on Dec. 7th, 1941, stationed at the Marine Air Field there, Kaneohe, I think. Later was on Guadalcanal. Betio. Iwo. Okinawa. Needless to say, he's seen the dragon up close.

Later, he was in Korea. Missed Chosin, oddly enough, I think he considers himself unlucky that he missed it.

He was wounded three times, once on Guadalcanal. On Betio. ...and in Korea, on a little hill that didn't even have a number, much less a name. He called it "a god forsaken frozen mole hill."

He's fought the Japanese, the Chinese, and the Koreans--and hates none of them.

He retired in 1962, about a year before I was born. Thirty years, most of it in combat theatres.

The other two veterans at our little confab were his sons, both pushing seventy... One was Army, the other Marine. Both saw combat in SE Asia. Both in Vietnam, though at different times.

They both have children who are serving as I write this, one in the Afghan mountains as a member of SpecOps. The other is, maybe, flying over Syria. I wish them, and their fellows, well, and will pray for their safe return, as quickly as humanly possible.

All three were amazingly candid about their experiences. As though no one wants to listen to their stories. Which is, I suppose, only too true in this era of political correctness run amuk.

All I said to them was good morning, and may I sit here, and thank you. Next thing I know, it's nearly one o'clock, and I've been sitting and listening for nearly five hours. What a remarkable trio of gentlemen, and I'll be forever grateful for the...trust is the only word I can come up with. I guess they felt that maybe I'd judge them, or something.

How can I, someone who's never served a day in uniform, much less seen the combat they've seen, possibly have the temerity to judge them harshly?

As they got up to go home, the Dad shook my hand and said thanks for putting up with our stories.

I couldn't talk, what's to say that wouldn't be platitude?

Three generations, and he's thanking me? They've shed their blood for me, though I'm fairly sure they weren't thinking that at the time.

No, sir, thank you.

My family has served in the US military for six generations. Some of my ever so great, greats saw the birth of our nation from behind the muzzle of a Kentucky long rifle. Fought on both sides during the Civil War (I'll bet that made for some interesting holiday conversations). The Spanish-American war. The Boxer Rebellion. World War One. World War Two. Korea. South-east Asia. Iraq. Afghanistan. Since I've got cousins still serving, probably elsewhere all too soon.

They didn't make the political decisions that put them there, they merely follow their oaths.

That family, and my own, are, if America has one, the warrior culture of America. Make no mistake, we have one. Those men represent it. My father does. My grandfather. All my siblings. Most of my cousins. The citizen-soldier.

My undying respect and admiration continues unabated for these fine young men and women, regardless of what I may feel about the idiocy that places them in harms way in places many can't even find on a map, much less care about.

All my respect.

First of all, none of the op was "judging harshly" vets. That is crystal clear from my various points.

This is problematic: "How can I, someone who's never served a day in uniform, much less seen the combat they've seen, possibly have the temerity to judge them harshly?"

This is a logical fallacy.

First of all, many vets aren't even very educated on what is going on, while others who are not vets but work internationally are often more so. So the logical fallacy "only the soldiers understand" has to go.

Second, these soldiers are engaging in one of the most problematic actions possible: war. War means death for themselves or other soldiers, death for civilians, loss of generations, destruction of infrastructure, violations of human rights, often rape and torture, etc.

They do NOT get a get out of jail free card magically for engaging in such activities simply because they may get their feelings hurt. Sorry, that is a load of bull.

As I said in my op, if they are lied and manipulated by the PTB into serving under false pretenses, or are drafted into service, then it is the leaders who are at fault, not the soldiers.

ANY person who joins the military voluntarily and knows what is really is going on now days with wars for profit and empire, however, IS at fault and guilty of serving a whole host of evil actions, which I briefly listed above. Such wars are criminal, and fighting for them knowingly is as well.

originally posted by: madmac5150

originally posted by: chuck258
Wow, you truly have zero respect. How about a simple "While I do not agree with how our goverment handles foreign affairs, today is about the Veterans who signed their life away in defense of our country"

No, you had to give a paragraph with a disclosure that you work with Veterans so your not anti-veteran, then insert a 600 word rant about how evil the US is with 'neo-imperialism' and 'unjust wars'

Yes, your thread is not overtly Anti-Veteran, but you are using a holiday designed to celebrate and respect them as a Sabot to launch your Anti-US propaganda and rhetoric. You couldn't wait until tomorrow? Or have posted this yesterday (seems like you've had a lot to say and been thinking about this for a while)

Bad taste, completely disrespectful, even if not directed at Veterans.


I'm not commenting on the point of your argument. While my view is a little less biased, I do agree that the US really needs to just let the Middle East destroy itself and we need to adopt a more isolationist position in the world. I just don't agree with you using Veterans Day as a means to create a thread to advance your message. You wouldn't make a thread on Mexican Independence Day celebrating the people of Mexico then turn around and start telling Mexicans how corrupt their country is, why the hell would you do it with our own VEterans? That is the point I am trying to make here.

Thank you...

The OP's tagline starts as a thanks to us vets, yet his post berates us for participating in foreign wars.

Guess what... didn't have a choice. I joined the U.S.A.F. before the first Gulf War. I did not choose to end up there... I just did. I joined because of my love of freedom, AND the Constitution of the United States, which I swore to defend.

My oldest son is now serving in the USAF, and I hope like hell that he understands the oath that he took...

To post this OP on Veteran's Day is a clear slap in the face to all vets, no matter what country they fought for.

To all my veteran brothers and sisters out there... you have my respect and gratitude...

If you HAD read my op, you would see that the people to blame for the soldiers going to such places are mostly the corrupt leaders. It is they who disrespect the vets.

I am laughing right now at the "pro-vets" posters' seeming inability to actually read the full op and respond logically and critically. They keep thinking the vets are being blamed in my op, or keep repeating the Bush-esque mantras of "support the troops."

I'm just seeing knee jerk reactions.

If you "love freedom" as you claim, you could not and would not support our foreign policy. Our foreign policy has demonstrably diminished the freedom and human rights of many people across the globe since the 1950s. As in, factual historical examples.

I have a major problem with people who claim to love freedom and American principles and then are all for the US military or CIA violating those abroad.

I do not have gratitude for what the soldiers or military have done. I have shame for my country and sadness for the soldiers who were sent to do evil. Our wars are NOT protecting our freedom nor our Constitution. In actuality, the actions of our government abroad violate the human rights of others AND make a mockery of the same Constitution you claim to love.

How can you not get this?

Deny ignorance.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

There are legitimate uses of national defense, after all we have adversaries who seek our downfall.
There are legitimate exercises of peace, and abuses of national power are well known, such as the genocide of the Americas and the enslavement of Africans. So use Occam's razor carefully, it depends on the hypothesis you are intending to support.
General truths are generally false.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Wasn't accusing you of anything. Just stating that there is judging going on. That's all I said. If you choose to think it was aimed at you, that's not my fault.

As for the reasons they joined?

I can't tell you that, that's between them and their consciences. Or, if their beliefs trend in that direction, God. What little judging I do is based upon their actions...and even then, since I have less than all the information, that judgement just might be a little wrong.

...and some folks herein have a disturbing tendency toward lumping all into the actions of a very small minority with less than all the information.

Must be nice being all knowing, being able to read the minds and hearts of all these men and women who join the military.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: seagull
Today I spent sitting and listening, some talking, but mostly listening, to various veterans from the different wars that American soldiers have fought in.

One of them was a fine old gentleman who joined the Marine Corp as a sixteen yr old kid in 1932, and was stationed in China prior to WWII, and got to witness the atrocities we hear so little about that were perpetrated by Japan.

He's a tad bit deaf. Mostly blind. But as alert as anyone I know.

He was at Pearl Harbour on Dec. 7th, 1941, stationed at the Marine Air Field there, Kaneohe, I think. Later was on Guadalcanal. Betio. Iwo. Okinawa. Needless to say, he's seen the dragon up close.

Later, he was in Korea. Missed Chosin, oddly enough, I think he considers himself unlucky that he missed it.

He was wounded three times, once on Guadalcanal. On Betio. ...and in Korea, on a little hill that didn't even have a number, much less a name. He called it "a god forsaken frozen mole hill."

He's fought the Japanese, the Chinese, and the Koreans--and hates none of them.

He retired in 1962, about a year before I was born. Thirty years, most of it in combat theatres.

The other two veterans at our little confab were his sons, both pushing seventy... One was Army, the other Marine. Both saw combat in SE Asia. Both in Vietnam, though at different times.

They both have children who are serving as I write this, one in the Afghan mountains as a member of SpecOps. The other is, maybe, flying over Syria. I wish them, and their fellows, well, and will pray for their safe return, as quickly as humanly possible.

All three were amazingly candid about their experiences. As though no one wants to listen to their stories. Which is, I suppose, only too true in this era of political correctness run amuk.

All I said to them was good morning, and may I sit here, and thank you. Next thing I know, it's nearly one o'clock, and I've been sitting and listening for nearly five hours. What a remarkable trio of gentlemen, and I'll be forever grateful for the...trust is the only word I can come up with. I guess they felt that maybe I'd judge them, or something.

How can I, someone who's never served a day in uniform, much less seen the combat they've seen, possibly have the temerity to judge them harshly?

As they got up to go home, the Dad shook my hand and said thanks for putting up with our stories.

I couldn't talk, what's to say that wouldn't be platitude?

Three generations, and he's thanking me? They've shed their blood for me, though I'm fairly sure they weren't thinking that at the time.

No, sir, thank you.

My family has served in the US military for six generations. Some of my ever so great, greats saw the birth of our nation from behind the muzzle of a Kentucky long rifle. Fought on both sides during the Civil War (I'll bet that made for some interesting holiday conversations). The Spanish-American war. The Boxer Rebellion. World War One. World War Two. Korea. South-east Asia. Iraq. Afghanistan. Since I've got cousins still serving, probably elsewhere all too soon.

They didn't make the political decisions that put them there, they merely follow their oaths.

That family, and my own, are, if America has one, the warrior culture of America. Make no mistake, we have one. Those men represent it. My father does. My grandfather. All my siblings. Most of my cousins. The citizen-soldier.

My undying respect and admiration continues unabated for these fine young men and women, regardless of what I may feel about the idiocy that places them in harms way in places many can't even find on a map, much less care about.

All my respect.

First of all, none of the op was "judging harshly" vets. That is crystal clear from my various points.

This is problematic: "How can I, someone who's never served a day in uniform, much less seen the combat they've seen, possibly have the temerity to judge them harshly?"

This is a logical fallacy.

First of all, many vets aren't even very educated on what is going on, while others who are not vets but work internationally are often more so. So the logical fallacy "only the soldiers understand" has to go.

Second, these soldiers are engaging in one of the most problematic actions possible: war. War means death for themselves or other soldiers, death for civilians, loss of generations, destruction of infrastructure, violations of human rights, often rape and torture, etc.

They do NOT get a get out of jail free card magically for engaging in such activities simply because they may get their feelings hurt. Sorry, that is a load of bull.

As I said in my op, if they are lied and manipulated by the PTB into serving under false pretenses, or are drafted into service, then it is the leaders who are at fault, not the soldiers.

ANY person who joins the military voluntarily and knows what is really is going on now days with wars for profit and empire, however, IS at fault and guilty of serving a whole host of evil actions, which I briefly listed above. Such wars are criminal, and fighting for them knowingly is as well.

"First of all, many vets aren't even very educated on what is going on"

So, Veterans are stupid... by your own words...

Some of the brightest people that I have EVER met were Air Force Officers and NCOs. We aren't clueless. To discard us as useless morons is an insult.

originally posted by: cryptic0void
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

There are legitimate uses of national defense, after all we have adversaries who seek our downfall.
There are legitimate exercises of peace, and abuses of national power are well known, such as the genocide of the Americas and the enslavement of Africans. So use Occam's razor carefully, it depends on the hypothesis you are intending to support.
General truths are generally false.

There are legitimate uses of force, and precious few of the last wars have been those. I'm all for real self-defense, or defense of truly oppressed peoples, such as those with threat of genocide like you noted.

The whole point is that the military now days is mostly being used for empire and global hegemony, not self-defense nor democracy building nor even protecting some group's freedom. This is demonstrable over the past 60 years.

originally posted by: madmac5150

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: seagull
Today I spent sitting and listening, some talking, but mostly listening, to various veterans from the different wars that American soldiers have fought in.

One of them was a fine old gentleman who joined the Marine Corp as a sixteen yr old kid in 1932, and was stationed in China prior to WWII, and got to witness the atrocities we hear so little about that were perpetrated by Japan.

He's a tad bit deaf. Mostly blind. But as alert as anyone I know.

He was at Pearl Harbour on Dec. 7th, 1941, stationed at the Marine Air Field there, Kaneohe, I think. Later was on Guadalcanal. Betio. Iwo. Okinawa. Needless to say, he's seen the dragon up close.

Later, he was in Korea. Missed Chosin, oddly enough, I think he considers himself unlucky that he missed it.

He was wounded three times, once on Guadalcanal. On Betio. ...and in Korea, on a little hill that didn't even have a number, much less a name. He called it "a god forsaken frozen mole hill."

He's fought the Japanese, the Chinese, and the Koreans--and hates none of them.

He retired in 1962, about a year before I was born. Thirty years, most of it in combat theatres.

The other two veterans at our little confab were his sons, both pushing seventy... One was Army, the other Marine. Both saw combat in SE Asia. Both in Vietnam, though at different times.

They both have children who are serving as I write this, one in the Afghan mountains as a member of SpecOps. The other is, maybe, flying over Syria. I wish them, and their fellows, well, and will pray for their safe return, as quickly as humanly possible.

All three were amazingly candid about their experiences. As though no one wants to listen to their stories. Which is, I suppose, only too true in this era of political correctness run amuk.

All I said to them was good morning, and may I sit here, and thank you. Next thing I know, it's nearly one o'clock, and I've been sitting and listening for nearly five hours. What a remarkable trio of gentlemen, and I'll be forever grateful for the...trust is the only word I can come up with. I guess they felt that maybe I'd judge them, or something.

How can I, someone who's never served a day in uniform, much less seen the combat they've seen, possibly have the temerity to judge them harshly?

As they got up to go home, the Dad shook my hand and said thanks for putting up with our stories.

I couldn't talk, what's to say that wouldn't be platitude?

Three generations, and he's thanking me? They've shed their blood for me, though I'm fairly sure they weren't thinking that at the time.

No, sir, thank you.

My family has served in the US military for six generations. Some of my ever so great, greats saw the birth of our nation from behind the muzzle of a Kentucky long rifle. Fought on both sides during the Civil War (I'll bet that made for some interesting holiday conversations). The Spanish-American war. The Boxer Rebellion. World War One. World War Two. Korea. South-east Asia. Iraq. Afghanistan. Since I've got cousins still serving, probably elsewhere all too soon.

They didn't make the political decisions that put them there, they merely follow their oaths.

That family, and my own, are, if America has one, the warrior culture of America. Make no mistake, we have one. Those men represent it. My father does. My grandfather. All my siblings. Most of my cousins. The citizen-soldier.

My undying respect and admiration continues unabated for these fine young men and women, regardless of what I may feel about the idiocy that places them in harms way in places many can't even find on a map, much less care about.

All my respect.

First of all, none of the op was "judging harshly" vets. That is crystal clear from my various points.

This is problematic: "How can I, someone who's never served a day in uniform, much less seen the combat they've seen, possibly have the temerity to judge them harshly?"

This is a logical fallacy.

First of all, many vets aren't even very educated on what is going on, while others who are not vets but work internationally are often more so. So the logical fallacy "only the soldiers understand" has to go.

Second, these soldiers are engaging in one of the most problematic actions possible: war. War means death for themselves or other soldiers, death for civilians, loss of generations, destruction of infrastructure, violations of human rights, often rape and torture, etc.

They do NOT get a get out of jail free card magically for engaging in such activities simply because they may get their feelings hurt. Sorry, that is a load of bull.

As I said in my op, if they are lied and manipulated by the PTB into serving under false pretenses, or are drafted into service, then it is the leaders who are at fault, not the soldiers.

ANY person who joins the military voluntarily and knows what is really is going on now days with wars for profit and empire, however, IS at fault and guilty of serving a whole host of evil actions, which I briefly listed above. Such wars are criminal, and fighting for them knowingly is as well.

"First of all, many vets aren't even very educated on what is going on"

So, Veterans are stupid... by your own words...

Some of the brightest people that I have EVER met were Air Force Officers and NCOs. We aren't clueless. To discard us as useless morons is an insult.

Many vets are not educated on global affairs, just as many civilians are not. Obviously some are. Do not attempt to twist a basic truth nor my words.

Also, I was addressing your own assertion that only those who served get to talk about war. That is a logical fallacy.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Wasn't accusing you of anything. Just stating that there is judging going on. That's all I said. If you choose to think it was aimed at you, that's not my fault.

As for the reasons they joined?

I can't tell you that, that's between them and their consciences. Or, if their beliefs trend in that direction, God. What little judging I do is based upon their actions...and even then, since I have less than all the information, that judgement just might be a little wrong.

...and some folks herein have a disturbing tendency toward lumping all into the actions of a very small minority with less than all the information.

Must be nice being all knowing, being able to read the minds and hearts of all these men and women who join the military.

You are still making this about their motives, rather than whether what they believed about the wars and what they were told were true or not. What you are saying does not actually address my op, who are the people that truly respect and support the troops?

My op states that most soldiers are manipulated into these wars and are not at fault. Besides occasional economic reasons or family legacy, many soldiers most definitely join based on propaganda. Their ideals and in some cases selflessness are taken advantage of by the PTB.

It's also important not to glorify vets as some kind of special class or extra noble group. They are not. Their motives range across the board, from probably good to bad, noble to base.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

did you vote for Obama? I bet you did. You did it out of idealism. You did it because you thought you were making the right decision and making the right choice.

how much remorse are you feeling towards wasting your vote on him?

Any?

None?

Do you see the comparison?

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: madmac5150

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: seagull
Today I spent sitting and listening, some talking, but mostly listening, to various veterans from the different wars that American soldiers have fought in.

One of them was a fine old gentleman who joined the Marine Corp as a sixteen yr old kid in 1932, and was stationed in China prior to WWII, and got to witness the atrocities we hear so little about that were perpetrated by Japan.

He's a tad bit deaf. Mostly blind. But as alert as anyone I know.

He was at Pearl Harbour on Dec. 7th, 1941, stationed at the Marine Air Field there, Kaneohe, I think. Later was on Guadalcanal. Betio. Iwo. Okinawa. Needless to say, he's seen the dragon up close.

Later, he was in Korea. Missed Chosin, oddly enough, I think he considers himself unlucky that he missed it.

He was wounded three times, once on Guadalcanal. On Betio. ...and in Korea, on a little hill that didn't even have a number, much less a name. He called it "a god forsaken frozen mole hill."

He's fought the Japanese, the Chinese, and the Koreans--and hates none of them.

He retired in 1962, about a year before I was born. Thirty years, most of it in combat theatres.

The other two veterans at our little confab were his sons, both pushing seventy... One was Army, the other Marine. Both saw combat in SE Asia. Both in Vietnam, though at different times.

They both have children who are serving as I write this, one in the Afghan mountains as a member of SpecOps. The other is, maybe, flying over Syria. I wish them, and their fellows, well, and will pray for their safe return, as quickly as humanly possible.

All three were amazingly candid about their experiences. As though no one wants to listen to their stories. Which is, I suppose, only too true in this era of political correctness run amuk.

All I said to them was good morning, and may I sit here, and thank you. Next thing I know, it's nearly one o'clock, and I've been sitting and listening for nearly five hours. What a remarkable trio of gentlemen, and I'll be forever grateful for the...trust is the only word I can come up with. I guess they felt that maybe I'd judge them, or something.

How can I, someone who's never served a day in uniform, much less seen the combat they've seen, possibly have the temerity to judge them harshly?

As they got up to go home, the Dad shook my hand and said thanks for putting up with our stories.

I couldn't talk, what's to say that wouldn't be platitude?

Three generations, and he's thanking me? They've shed their blood for me, though I'm fairly sure they weren't thinking that at the time.

No, sir, thank you.

My family has served in the US military for six generations. Some of my ever so great, greats saw the birth of our nation from behind the muzzle of a Kentucky long rifle. Fought on both sides during the Civil War (I'll bet that made for some interesting holiday conversations). The Spanish-American war. The Boxer Rebellion. World War One. World War Two. Korea. South-east Asia. Iraq. Afghanistan. Since I've got cousins still serving, probably elsewhere all too soon.

They didn't make the political decisions that put them there, they merely follow their oaths.

That family, and my own, are, if America has one, the warrior culture of America. Make no mistake, we have one. Those men represent it. My father does. My grandfather. All my siblings. Most of my cousins. The citizen-soldier.

My undying respect and admiration continues unabated for these fine young men and women, regardless of what I may feel about the idiocy that places them in harms way in places many can't even find on a map, much less care about.

All my respect.

First of all, none of the op was "judging harshly" vets. That is crystal clear from my various points.

This is problematic: "How can I, someone who's never served a day in uniform, much less seen the combat they've seen, possibly have the temerity to judge them harshly?"

This is a logical fallacy.

First of all, many vets aren't even very educated on what is going on, while others who are not vets but work internationally are often more so. So the logical fallacy "only the soldiers understand" has to go.

Second, these soldiers are engaging in one of the most problematic actions possible: war. War means death for themselves or other soldiers, death for civilians, loss of generations, destruction of infrastructure, violations of human rights, often rape and torture, etc.

They do NOT get a get out of jail free card magically for engaging in such activities simply because they may get their feelings hurt. Sorry, that is a load of bull.

As I said in my op, if they are lied and manipulated by the PTB into serving under false pretenses, or are drafted into service, then it is the leaders who are at fault, not the soldiers.

ANY person who joins the military voluntarily and knows what is really is going on now days with wars for profit and empire, however, IS at fault and guilty of serving a whole host of evil actions, which I briefly listed above. Such wars are criminal, and fighting for them knowingly is as well.

"First of all, many vets aren't even very educated on what is going on"

So, Veterans are stupid... by your own words...

Some of the brightest people that I have EVER met were Air Force Officers and NCOs. We aren't clueless. To discard us as useless morons is an insult.

Many vets are not educated on global affairs, just as many civilians are not. Obviously some are. Do not attempt to twist a basic truth nor my words.

Also, I was addressing your own assertion that only those who served get to talk about war. That is prima facie ridiculous.

You may be surprised by the intelligence of those that join the U.S. military. I was invited to join MENSA, and refused. That's a whole lot of smug that I don't need. I retired as a Senior NCO. NOT an officer. Besides, properly bred dogs get "papers" for their pedigree. Not me...

I never said said anyone cannot talk about war. From my perspective, war sucks. Humans lose their lives, in very ugly ways. I hate war and warfare... and I hate it more, because I have seen it first hand. THAT, I guess, is the real difference between those that "get it", and those that don't....