Defining a "moderate Muslim,"or refuting it.

a reply to: St Udio

One of the saddest moments for people was when their mystical beliefs got turned into a political, dogmatic system with all its trappings and the mystical virtually got trampled on by ambitious priests intent on secreting their authority over everyone via the velvet glove of state.

originally posted by: anxiouswens
I don't think you can compare what happened in Germany with regard to Jews. As far as I know Jewish people weren't violent to Germans or trying to force their beliefs on to Germans or wishing terrible things to happen to non-Jewish Germans and so it is a completely different situation.

Nor do I believe people wish any harm to muslims (at least not the people I know!). I don't see many posting videos asking for all non-muslims to rise up and kill the muslims, behead the muslims for their beliefs!! I certainly don't wish any harm to my close friends who are muslim! In fact my close friends have the same worries as me and that is in relation to extreme islam. I certainly wouldn't be crying if something terrible happened to the people who are terrorising people in Syria, Iraq and other parts of the world and if something happened to some of the hate preachers in this Country who spew their hatred constantly on our streets but at the same time I wouldn't wish it upon them.

I think what concerns people is the part of Islam where it is OK to deceive or lie to non-muslims. This makes it very hard to trust who is genuine and who isn't. The muslims I meet in every day life at the chemist, at all the local shops, at the hospitals or wherever else should I just take them at face value and believe they are as nice as they appear or are they not genuine? You see I see all these people in every day life when I go to theme parks, seaside, days out, as moderates. However, I do come across some who I would think aren't moderate. Such as the group who I had to ask for directions earlier on in the year in Scarborough. Two of the men in the group stared straight through me as though I hadn't spoken and then both proceeded to spit on the floor. Their wives were wearing Burqhas and looked at the floor as if I hadn't spoken. Eventually one of the group spoke and gave me directions but it was a very hostile environment. I would never treat anyone like that, if someone came up to me to ask for directions I would treat all people equally regardless of their skin colour or culture. Its OK to keep calling everyone who raises concerns about this bigoted or an Islamphobe but then that cuts both ways. What about the muslims who are causing problems for Jewish people in the UK. What about the muslims who are openly hostile to anyone who isn't muslim. No label is ever given to them. friends a reply to: yorkshirelad

Think of it:
Buddhists living with Hindus = No Problem

Hindus living with Christians = No Problem

Hindus living with Jews = No Problem

Christians living with Shintos = No Problem

Shintos living with Confucians = No Problem

Confucians living with Baha'is = No Problem

Baha'is living with Jews = No Problem

Jews living with Atheists = No Problem

Atheists living with Buddhists = No Problem

Buddhists living with Sikhs = No Problem

Sikhs living with Hindus = No Problem

Hindus living with Baha'is = No Problem

Baha'is living with Christians = No Problem

Christians living with Jews = No Problem

Jews living with Buddhists = No Problem

Buddhists living with Shintos = No Problem

Shintos living with Atheists = No Problem

Atheists living with Confucians = No Problem

Confusians living with Hindus = No Problem

Are there exceptions and some kind of local mayhem... Yep but not in an organized way which requires you to submit to a different belief system of off with your frigging head.

But:

Muslims living with Hindus=Problem

Muslims living with Buddhists = Problem

Muslims living with Christians = Problem

Muslims living with Jews = Problem

Muslims living with Sikhs = Problem

Muslims living with Baha'is = Problem

Muslims living with Shintos = Problem

Muslims living with Atheists = Problem



MUSLIMS LIVING WITH MUSLIMS EVEN THAT CAN BE A BIG PROBLEM !




******** So, What are their Major Organizations for the religion of peace ? ********



Shariah Law: AN ISLAMIC OBLIGATION REQUIRED OF ALL MUSLIMS

ISIS/ISIL : AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Al-Qaeda: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Taliban: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Hamas: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Hezbollah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Boko Haram: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Al-Nusra: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Abu Sayyaf: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Al-Badr: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Muslim Brotherhood: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Lashkar-e-Taiba: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Palestine Liberation Front: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Ansaru: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Jemaah Islamiyah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Abdullah Azzam Brigades: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

Seems like a lot of organizations with members who have been classified as "TERRORIST".

Moderates are just people breeding the future radicals

Moderate rebels, means nothing to me, too much unneeded political correctness is leading us to hate each other more.

It's just terms the puppet governments with agendas who like to use, to create more division, more wars, then more profits.

Part of the grand scheme of "divide and conquer" agenda.

Peace

Are all cases of "moderate Muslims," cases which include the belief in the separation of church and state?

A moderate Muslim is any Muslim who isn't Wahhabist or Qutbist (i.e practices their faith to varying degrees but doesn't impose it on others). MY surgeon, neurologist, postman/mail man and shop keeper are all moderate muslims - same goes for friends, some even drink and smoke - basically normal people. Some amazing people, mojority hardly noticeable, and the odd grump (though cause of crumpyness is down to the persons attitude not their faith). Chances are you wouldn't even know their religion unless they were wearing islamic dress, though I guess that's also a cultural thing

Apologies if off-topic but I've been intrigued by the white circular dishes with some kind of cloth that some Muslim shop owners use/ touch before accepting money/products, is it to avoid touching haram things or basic sanitation - should probably ask the guys myself really as they're all friendly, generally decent people from what I've seen and we always stop and have a chat and joke if it's quiet.

Link to Qutism and Political Islam which are the non-moderates trying to enforce that way of life on others/abide by their standards :en.wikipedia.org... (sorry for wiki link but it's a decent overview with many other links and branches).

- same as US bible belt and most of Eurasia under christean-judeo values though 'the Wests' have softened in the last 50 years when it turns to rights and most things go unnoticed as they're part of the culture. Though it's more predominant in Muslim countries, as is expected due to wealth innequality etc..

-------

Moderate rebels on the other hand are a completely different kettle of fish - some may be fighting for good causes but a lot are killing for money in war torn areas and would chage sides at the drop of a hat if more pa was offered.

It's predominantly a political terminology to try and pretend there are good guys in warfare, however in Iraq/Syria/Afghanistan it's pretty clear there are no good guys, just various tribes continuing wars in an ongoing powerstruggle - as some members have already pointed out.

a reply to: bastion

So if a terrorist is a terrorist on the grounds that he feels his religion(in this case Islam) compels him to be one, but, he isn't the two sects that you stated, he's still a "moderate Muslim?"

originally posted by: Thetan
a reply to: bastion

So if a terrorist is a terrorist on the grounds that he feels his religion(in this case Islam) compels him to be one, but, he isn't the two sects that you stated, he's still a "moderate Muslim?"

No exactly the opposite (it's late probably not explaining myself well): That would come under the most extreme version of muslim terrorist by of enforcing beliefs on others, which can never be allowed to be considered moderate from the second he feels his religion compels him to commit atrocities or even slight upsets. I'm all for people having personal beliefs, just the line stops when you try to enforce them on overs, then you're into the extremist territory.

Read read up on Wahhabism and Qut'bism my friends, they're the only ones that call for Jihad or killing/maltreatment of non-believers. To engage in Jihad you need to be part of those belief systems. They're where all the terrorists come from as it's a barbaric interpretation of what they think the 7th Century world was like.

They are the hundreds in my community, mostly persians and turks. Most professionals like doctors, some buisness owners like the two guy that own the post office down the road, some of whom I call freinds, all want to live long peaceful, prosperous lifes and want to be left alone to practice there religion like anyone else.

You dont see them as there is no reason too, the fact you do t notice them is because they are obeying the law and have assimilated.



Dont get me wrong though, i have zero tolerance for the muslims that come over to spread hate and refuse to assimilate and ibey ours laws. I would send them back to the desert myself.

a reply to: bastion

So a "moderate Muslim," is any Muslim that doesn't violently impose their beliefs on others?

a reply to: bastion

I have a huge 'but' to what you say because you are ignoring

"Lying" - which is fine, and perfectible acceptable to any muslim if they are lying to a non-muslim. If you want to run take-aways and any form of business dealing with the public - you obviously have to make like you like them. Smiles all round, but don't be fooled by it because you don't know as they are a minority fitting in, whether their 'friendliness is sincere.

Charity donations must be given and a part of each donations goes with all muslim's full knowledge to support jihad and the terrorists. Muslims all follow sharia - its intrinsic to their belief in islam.

Look at 727Sky's list and ask how is all this funded - you don't have to look too far when you know a little more about islam.

Islam, the same as judaism completely separate out their communities and fill their heads with the idea that they are superior and different to the monkey's e.g. all non members of their faith. In this case the monkey's are us. |We become their victims when we are ignorant of their intent.

a reply to: crazyewok

Its important to remember that not everyone is religious minded - especially today and its mostly the less educated or where people live in a minority and haven't integrated that religious problems arise.

Religion wise, what I find interesting is that if you are Jewish and leave you get cut off and everyone ignores you.

If you are Christian no one cares its your business.

But if you are muslim buddy you will be hunted and die.

Interestingly Jewish people who work in our government and legal system are finding they have a gaping Achilles heel because they have manipulated a situation which enables them to hold their own courts and observe their own laws. Most people are totally ignorant about this here, but it goes on. However with Islamics bringing sharia they are suddenly having to defend the religious courts for themselves but protest against sharia courts and their laws.

Both these peoples link politics to their religion/way of life and although we have a Christian presence within our parliament, we have complete religious freedom. I suspect British culture will hold onto this very tight. We did the religious 'dominance' hundreds of years ago and its like being dragged backwards in fact you hear the term 'God botherer' laughed at here and people mostly run away from them.

originally posted by: Thetan
a reply to: bastion

So a "moderate Muslim," is any Muslim that doesn't violently impose their beliefs on others?

Again you're putting words in my mouth, please tell me what part of the post you didn't understan?

Through violence, verbally or by law - same as any group of people religious or not. Their beliefs are their own, the second anyone tries to impose them on others they're not moderate.

originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: bastion

I have a huge 'but' to what you say because you are ignoring

"Lying" - which is fine, and perfectible acceptable to any muslim if they are lying to a non-muslim. If you want to run take-aways and any form of business dealing with the public - you obviously have to make like you like them. Smiles all round, but don't be fooled by it because you don't know as they are a minority fitting in, whether their 'friendliness is sincere.

Charity donations must be given and a part of each donations goes with all muslim's full knowledge to support jihad and the terrorists. Muslims all follow sharia - its intrinsic to their belief in islam.

Look at 727Sky's list and ask how is all this funded - you don't have to look too far when you know a little more about islam.

Islam, the same as judaism completely separate out their communities and fill their heads with the idea that they are superior and different to the monkey's e.g. all non members of their faith. In this case the monkey's are us. |We become their victims when we are ignorant of their intent.

Complete and utter tosh ---- please don't put the words 'I'm not a racist but.... I hate all brown people'' in my mouth, I'm not a racist bigot who thinks every Muslim secretly wants to be the next Hitler as I have a modicum of sense. Your attitude is just as bad as the hate preachers, it sickens me.

Last night I was in the pub having drinks then started playing pool with several Muslims, we were joking about Qut'b and one of their responses was 'mate if I was one of them al qu'eda twats, you'd have been blown up by now'. They smoke, they drink, they have a laugh and have the ability to mock their own religion - can't get more moderate than that.

How many do you know in your day to day life, you sound like someone who just goes off what the news says instead of real life. Not every Muslim is hiding under your bed waiting to jump out when the time's right - most just want a decent life without any drama or bull# - same as everyone else who's a normal decent human being.

a reply to: bastion

Ha ha! flying the racist flag as you retreat from answering any of the points I actually raised - by the way which direction is that flat flying in?

Its you who should try reading what people actually write before spouting your la la ideas.

You would have noted that I mentioned a lot of people from any of the desert religious backgrounds aren't actually religious and more and don't buy a bar of it. Sorry you have picked on one of the people here who has a multi-religious/racial family incorporating all three desert religious backgrounds. Take it from me I have drunk with a mixture of Jew/Christian/Muslim all happily together and we all get along just fine. It makes us aware though of the move to try to deliberately segregate families with our backgrounds and views.

I would pick up on one point - these guys you call 'moderate' would not be regarded as moderate by other muslims and their respective saudi-run mosques

Maybe the definition should be secular Muslims (Who leave their faith at home).

Speaking personally, I get fed up when ANY religion is waved in front of me by the sort of person who feels the need to evangelise it.

^This 100%, secular is the word I've been looking for 'doh'.

originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: bastion

Ha ha! flying the racist flag as you retreat from answering any of the points I actually raised - by the way which direction is that flat flying in?

Its you who should try reading what people actually write before spouting your la la ideas.

No just pointing out the typical 'I'm not a racist but'....'insert racist comment here' stuff - - it's a common joke in the UK - indeed I had potentially misinterpreted what you said, but the whole 'monkeys' thing rang big alarm bells, when your smearing my friends and community as one homogeneous group who all think and act exactly the same - it's dehumanising, or at least that's the way it reads.

I don't understand what you mean about Madrasas/Wahhabists views. Do you mean they'd consider them Kafir? If so I agree as they're the militant extreme versions of Islam who are absolutely bat# crazy people. They're the Westborough Baptist Church/Tea Party version of Islam.

They're the Westborough Baptist Church/Tea Party version of Islam. They're a complete joke and most most Muslims hate them for hijacking their religion and find their actions despicable - sameas any sane Christian/Catholic/Human Being denounces the KKK.

Double post

originally posted by: Thetan
President Obama has repeatably used the term "moderate Muslim(s)," when discussing the United State's involvement in the Middle East. The United State's government has never released an official definition of what a "moderate Muslim" is. In this thread you will attempt to define the term "moderate Muslim." Or, if you'd like, you can assert that there is no such thing as a "moderate Muslim," and argue from that viewpoint.

He means Saud family and Bin Laden family
Since American presidents have cooperated with those two so called MODERATE Muslim elites a lot

originally posted by: ShortStuff
It's very simple ... a moderate Muslim doesn’t want to behead you, a moderate Muslim wants a radical Muslim to behead you FOR him.

Is not this the definition of Saud family ! They are as MODERATE as Obama and Bush, are not they !!

originally posted by: Shiloh7


This is what Muslims - moderate - but still muslims believe in:

Abrogation (Al-mansukh wa al-nasikh)- chronologically the earlier verses are more moderate but importantly the later ones which now apply allow for a far more violent attitude to be acceptable.

WRONG.

Abrogation means some later revelations from God, i.e. some quranic verses and laws abbrogate former revelations, i.e., from the bible.

Adultery (Zina) - punishable by lashing or stoning to death.

WRONG.

There is no stoning to death in the Qur'an - but it is in the Bible - therefore the Qur'an ABBROGATED the previous revelation from the bible.

Apostasy (Irtidad or Ridda)- establishes that apostates - any muslim who rejects their religion or leaves it, are to be killed wherever they are found.

WRONG.

There is no punishment whatsoever for apostasy in the Qur'an.

Democracy (big one this) Any system of man-made law is considered illicit under Islamic Law Sharia and democracy can never co-exist in harmony.

WRONG.

Leaders of the community, according to Sharia are elected by the community.

Female Genital Mutilation

Unknown concept in Islam.




The rest of your drivel is also wrong, but I am on the road and dont have time to answer all the other points.