University of Missouri proves racial hypocrisy on Universities

a reply to: Gryphon66

The testimony of the head coach and the president and chancellor are unreliable. What are the chancellor and the president going to say as they resign? You expect them to say what they really think when they are being asked to fall on their swords? The head coach has to try to maintain control of his team which has already gone off the rails without asking him what they should do. He was either going to lose those 32 or show support. Now they have to try to mend fences with the rest of the team who didn't join the protest. Fun for Mizzou. We'll see if this blows up their locker room.

a reply to: Gryphon66

My point is can you prove that there was actual systemic racism within the university system itself?

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

Both actually.

I don't approve of racism, but I fail to see how it has proven that there is a climate of systemic racism based on the incidents listed, maybe if there actually was one, I could get behind this more.

And the incidents that could be proven/perpetrators caught were very quickly and harshly dealt with, so I don't see how "nothing" was done.

The list of demands was patently ridiculous and all out of proportion to what actually happened. You want him to apologize for White Privilege? OK, as soon as you apologize for being black ... I mean, it amounts to the same thing. Apologize for how you were born.

The President, the Chancellor, the Faculty, the Head Coach have all acknowledged there were problems and that the students had viable claims regarding racism.

You are second-guessing all those people, and offering your opinion about what the kids asked for.

I think you're actually getting closer to some honesty when you compare White Privilege to Being Black ... is that the same thing here?

Are you claiming that the African American students have Black Privilege?

How is it you know so much more about the situation than the people who are there, on campus, and have been?

Nobody at ATS knows the claims are false. Nobody at ATS knows the claims are true.

That's what some clear-headed folks say "gee, evidence would be nice".

Swearing that it can't be true, or that it must be true....are both foolish.

Nothing is true or false because of who said it. Well, for some maybe. Not for us who like to distinguish lies from truth.

Yep, read back. Before the President and Chancellor resigned, I said repeatedly we should wait for what an investigation would show. Aw, you called me "clear-headed" ... that's nice.

Well, I'm glad you agree that we don't currently know for sure that any such racism happened, and we're scratching our heads as to why people are being run off and threatened without such proof. Welcome aboard. Somebody crying and resigning is not "completing the investigation".

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

The testimony of the head coach and the president and chancellor are unreliable. What are the chancellor and the president going to say as they resign? You expect them to say what they really think when they are being asked to fall on their swords? The head coach has to try to maintain control of his team which has already gone off the rails without asking him what they should do. He was either going to lose those 32 or show support. Now they have to try to mend fences with the rest of the team who didn't join the protest. Fun for Mizzou. We'll see if this blows up their locker room.

Then what evidence would you accept? Who can testify? You discount everyone who can possibly attest to anything, you deny every report because it's not up to your standards of evidence (or something) ...

Why don't you just come out and say that nothing happened, the kids made it all up and there's no proving anything else?

Because that's effectively what you're saying ... over and over again.

a reply to: ketsuko

Then why did he say on Friday that he should have done something about the long-standing, systemic problem of racism on that campus? If you want to keep your job, you either talk about all the good things you have done, or you propose a specific plan of how you will fix it. He did neither in his statement on Friday, nor any other public statement.

I know you think you are an expert on university racial relations, but maybe you might just be wrong about what you think will or will not work.

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

Both actually.

I don't approve of racism, but I fail to see how it has proven that there is a climate of systemic racism based on the incidents listed, maybe if there actually was one, I could get behind this more.

And the incidents that could be proven/perpetrators caught were very quickly and harshly dealt with, so I don't see how "nothing" was done.

The list of demands was patently ridiculous and all out of proportion to what actually happened. You want him to apologize for White Privilege? OK, as soon as you apologize for being black ... I mean, it amounts to the same thing. Apologize for how you were born.

The President, the Chancellor, the Faculty, the Head Coach have all acknowledged there were problems and that the students had viable claims regarding racism.

You are second-guessing all those people, and offering your opinion about what the kids asked for.

I think you're actually getting closer to some honesty when you compare White Privilege to Being Black ... is that the same thing here?

Are you claiming that the African American students have Black Privilege?

How is it you know so much more about the situation than the people who are there, on campus, and have been?

Nobody at ATS knows the claims are false. Nobody at ATS knows the claims are true.

That's what some clear-headed folks say "gee, evidence would be nice".

Swearing that it can't be true, or that it must be true....are both foolish.

Nothing is true or false because of who said it. Well, for some maybe. Not for us who like to distinguish lies from truth.

Yep, read back. Before the President and Chancellor resigned, I said repeatedly we should wait for what an investigation would show. Aw, you called me "clear-headed" ... that's nice.

Well, I'm glad you agree that we don't currently know for sure that any such racism happened, and we're scratching our heads as to why people are being run off and threatened without such proof. Welcome aboard. Somebody crying and resigning is not "completing the investigation".

Perhaps we could take people (like the President, the Chancellor, the Head Coach) at their word when they tell you what the situation is?

What's your issue with that, exactly? Do you know more than the President of the University as well?

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

Can you provide proof of systemic racism? I mean throughout the entire system, not just isolated incidents related more to the student body level. Systemic means all the way up.

And the President was on the chopping block before this incident, it just gave them a convenient excuse to get rid of him. That's according to the Columbia paper reporter who has been covering this. This was just a cover.

As for the football players, they were basically extorting the University over the BYU game. If they forfeit, the school would have to pay out $1 million because of the nature of the game. You could call that extortion and that brings up legal issues because every one of them who signed a scholarship LOI made certain legal agreements to the school.

I've offered the testimony of people on the campus. Students, administrators, faculty, the Head Coach and the President.

Do you have any evidence that these claims are falsified? Because multiple witnesses on the scene have attested to them.

At this point, it seems you need to provide some evidence of your own not just conjecture.

As far as the football players choosing not to act, (you really need to look up what extortion actually means), what would you have happen? Should the players have been coerced to play? How would you have done that?

Logic, debate, and law do not allow that your lack of proof for the racism stories, constitutes proof that they can't be disproven.

We'd never get anywhere on anything if everybody ran around doing that.

Claim racism happened, prove racism happened. Don't say "uh, if you can't disprove it, that means it happened". You could never do that on a witness stand.

But apparently you can on a university campus, or with the media.

Same things happening with the Carson thing. "Prove that you didn't lie about this thing 50 years ago". It's infantile at best. They're doing it to Cruz today. Telling him to prove that his father didn't lie about things in Cuba 60 years ago.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

My point is can you prove that there was actual systemic racism within the university system itself?

It's not on me to prove, I didn't make the claim.

What I have demonstrated, repeatedly, is that those (that we have no reason to doubt) actually in the situation attest to the systemic racism that the students alleged.

My point is how far do you want to keep moving the goal posts?

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

Both actually.

I don't approve of racism, but I fail to see how it has proven that there is a climate of systemic racism based on the incidents listed, maybe if there actually was one, I could get behind this more.

And the incidents that could be proven/perpetrators caught were very quickly and harshly dealt with, so I don't see how "nothing" was done.

The list of demands was patently ridiculous and all out of proportion to what actually happened. You want him to apologize for White Privilege? OK, as soon as you apologize for being black ... I mean, it amounts to the same thing. Apologize for how you were born.

The President, the Chancellor, the Faculty, the Head Coach have all acknowledged there were problems and that the students had viable claims regarding racism.

You are second-guessing all those people, and offering your opinion about what the kids asked for.

I think you're actually getting closer to some honesty when you compare White Privilege to Being Black ... is that the same thing here?

Are you claiming that the African American students have Black Privilege?

How is it you know so much more about the situation than the people who are there, on campus, and have been?

Nobody at ATS knows the claims are false. Nobody at ATS knows the claims are true.

That's what some clear-headed folks say "gee, evidence would be nice".

Swearing that it can't be true, or that it must be true....are both foolish.

Nothing is true or false because of who said it. Well, for some maybe. Not for us who like to distinguish lies from truth.

Yep, read back. Before the President and Chancellor resigned, I said repeatedly we should wait for what an investigation would show. Aw, you called me "clear-headed" ... that's nice.

Well, I'm glad you agree that we don't currently know for sure that any such racism happened, and we're scratching our heads as to why people are being run off and threatened without such proof. Welcome aboard. Somebody crying and resigning is not "completing the investigation".

Perhaps we could take people (like the President, the Chancellor, the Head Coach) at their word when they tell you what the situation is?

What's your issue with that, exactly? Do you know more than the President of the University as well?

I don't know that he's telling the truth about racism, and you don't either.

It's your choice to believe that which you want to be true.

I choose not to. I'll accept either eventuality, that's proven with evidence.

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

Can you provide proof of systemic racism? I mean throughout the entire system, not just isolated incidents related more to the student body level. Systemic means all the way up.

And the President was on the chopping block before this incident, it just gave them a convenient excuse to get rid of him. That's according to the Columbia paper reporter who has been covering this. This was just a cover.

As for the football players, they were basically extorting the University over the BYU game. If they forfeit, the school would have to pay out $1 million because of the nature of the game. You could call that extortion and that brings up legal issues because every one of them who signed a scholarship LOI made certain legal agreements to the school.

I've offered the testimony of people on the campus. Students, administrators, faculty, the Head Coach and the President.

Do you have any evidence that these claims are falsified? Because multiple witnesses on the scene have attested to them.

At this point, it seems you need to provide some evidence of your own not just conjecture.

As far as the football players choosing not to act, (you really need to look up what extortion actually means), what would you have happen? Should the players have been coerced to play? How would you have done that?

Logic, debate, and law do not allow that your lack of proof for the racism stories, constitutes proof that they can't be disproven.

We'd never get anywhere on anything if everybody ran around doing that.

Claim racism happened, prove racism happened. Don't say "uh, if you can't disprove it, that means it happened". You could never do that on a witness stand.

But apparently you can on a university campus, or with the media.

Same things happening with the Carson thing. "Prove that you didn't lie about this thing 50 years ago". It's infantile at best. They're doing it to Cruz today. Telling him to prove that his father didn't lie about things in Cuba 60 years ago.

You seem to be mixing topics. I'd hate to point out your right-wing agenda in this.

There has been evidence presented. Not only has evidence been presented by the alleged victims, but also, by one of the prime witnesses in the entire matter: the President of the University.

You and others keep pointing to the evidence and claiming it's not good enough. It's like you had a signed, video-tape of a confession and you want to say that doesn't mean anything.

I put the question to you as well ... what evidence would you accept? Because plenty has been provided.

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

Both actually.

I don't approve of racism, but I fail to see how it has proven that there is a climate of systemic racism based on the incidents listed, maybe if there actually was one, I could get behind this more.

And the incidents that could be proven/perpetrators caught were very quickly and harshly dealt with, so I don't see how "nothing" was done.

The list of demands was patently ridiculous and all out of proportion to what actually happened. You want him to apologize for White Privilege? OK, as soon as you apologize for being black ... I mean, it amounts to the same thing. Apologize for how you were born.

The President, the Chancellor, the Faculty, the Head Coach have all acknowledged there were problems and that the students had viable claims regarding racism.

You are second-guessing all those people, and offering your opinion about what the kids asked for.

I think you're actually getting closer to some honesty when you compare White Privilege to Being Black ... is that the same thing here?

Are you claiming that the African American students have Black Privilege?

How is it you know so much more about the situation than the people who are there, on campus, and have been?

Nobody at ATS knows the claims are false. Nobody at ATS knows the claims are true.

That's what some clear-headed folks say "gee, evidence would be nice".

Swearing that it can't be true, or that it must be true....are both foolish.

Nothing is true or false because of who said it. Well, for some maybe. Not for us who like to distinguish lies from truth.

Yep, read back. Before the President and Chancellor resigned, I said repeatedly we should wait for what an investigation would show. Aw, you called me "clear-headed" ... that's nice.

Well, I'm glad you agree that we don't currently know for sure that any such racism happened, and we're scratching our heads as to why people are being run off and threatened without such proof. Welcome aboard. Somebody crying and resigning is not "completing the investigation".

Perhaps we could take people (like the President, the Chancellor, the Head Coach) at their word when they tell you what the situation is?

What's your issue with that, exactly? Do you know more than the President of the University as well?

I don't know that he's telling the truth about racism, and you don't either.

It's your choice to believe that which you want to be true.

I choose not to. I'll accept either eventuality, that's proven with evidence.

You choose not to believe the President of the University, the Chancellor, the Head Coach, the Faculty, Administrators and the Students themselves.

I don't think there's any evidence that will satisfy you, honestly.

And honestly, what does it matter? You're one person. I'm one person. We both have opinions.

The facts are clear. It doesn't matter whether it's been proven to your satisfaction, does it? If so, please explain to us why it matters.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

My point is can you prove that there was actual systemic racism within the university system itself?

It's not on me to prove, I didn't make the claim.

What I have demonstrated, repeatedly, is that those (that we have no reason to doubt) actually in the situation attest to the systemic racism that the students alleged.

My point is how far do you want to keep moving the goal posts?

We have every reason to doubt people who refuse to bring proof.

With your stance here, we had no business questioning the "rape victim" at Duke....or the "rape victim" at UVA.....or Michael Brown's "hands up" and/or "kneeling".

We live in a world of lies, deceit, and proof.

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

My point is can you prove that there was actual systemic racism within the university system itself?

It's not on me to prove, I didn't make the claim.

What I have demonstrated, repeatedly, is that those (that we have no reason to doubt) actually in the situation attest to the systemic racism that the students alleged.

My point is how far do you want to keep moving the goal posts?

We have every reason to doubt people who refuse to bring proof.

With your stance here, we had no business questioning the "rape victim" at Duke....or the "rape victim" at UVA.....or Michael Brown's "hands up" and/or "kneeling".

We live in a world of lies, deceit, and proof.

What proof do you require?

Leave out the red herring.

Tell us, aside from detailed testimony about several events, detailed descriptions of the general racial atmosphere at the college, statements from all sides attesting to the presence of these issues and accepting the truth about the events ...

How can anyone satisfy your need for evidence? It's been provided over and over and over.

Followup: why should we care?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Are you saying that President Wolfe didn't know what was going on at the university?

President Wolfe is the one who made the statement in question.

He's not to be trusted either?

Well...soldiers who are held prisoner admit to all sorts of things too.

His admission is pure capitulation, in my estimation. That is, unless there are specific incidents that are more specific that "someone" shouting obscenities.

Thats all I want: evidence. The guy lost his job, afterall....im not going to just give blanket support for that.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

Both actually.

I don't approve of racism, but I fail to see how it has proven that there is a climate of systemic racism based on the incidents listed, maybe if there actually was one, I could get behind this more.

And the incidents that could be proven/perpetrators caught were very quickly and harshly dealt with, so I don't see how "nothing" was done.

The list of demands was patently ridiculous and all out of proportion to what actually happened. You want him to apologize for White Privilege? OK, as soon as you apologize for being black ... I mean, it amounts to the same thing. Apologize for how you were born.

The President, the Chancellor, the Faculty, the Head Coach have all acknowledged there were problems and that the students had viable claims regarding racism.

You are second-guessing all those people, and offering your opinion about what the kids asked for.

I think you're actually getting closer to some honesty when you compare White Privilege to Being Black ... is that the same thing here?

Are you claiming that the African American students have Black Privilege?

How is it you know so much more about the situation than the people who are there, on campus, and have been?

Nobody at ATS knows the claims are false. Nobody at ATS knows the claims are true.

That's what some clear-headed folks say "gee, evidence would be nice".

Swearing that it can't be true, or that it must be true....are both foolish.

Nothing is true or false because of who said it. Well, for some maybe. Not for us who like to distinguish lies from truth.

Yep, read back. Before the President and Chancellor resigned, I said repeatedly we should wait for what an investigation would show. Aw, you called me "clear-headed" ... that's nice.

Well, I'm glad you agree that we don't currently know for sure that any such racism happened, and we're scratching our heads as to why people are being run off and threatened without such proof. Welcome aboard. Somebody crying and resigning is not "completing the investigation".

Perhaps we could take people (like the President, the Chancellor, the Head Coach) at their word when they tell you what the situation is?

What's your issue with that, exactly? Do you know more than the President of the University as well?

I don't know that he's telling the truth about racism, and you don't either.

It's your choice to believe that which you want to be true.

I choose not to. I'll accept either eventuality, that's proven with evidence.

You choose not to believe the President of the University, the Chancellor, the Head Coach, the Faculty, Administrators and the Students themselves.

I don't think there's any evidence that will satisfy you, honestly.

And honestly, what does it matter? You're one person. I'm one person. We both have opinions.

The facts are clear. It doesn't matter whether it's been proven to your satisfaction, does it? If so, please explain to us why it matters.

There are no facts without proof.

Stories are not facts just because you agree with them. Stories are not proven just because you approve of the storyteller.

Noting that there's zero evidence doesn't prove that "no evidence will satisfy you".

My satisfaction has nothing to do with it. Proof that all of us can look at has everything to do with it.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Are you saying that President Wolfe didn't know what was going on at the university?

President Wolfe is the one who made the statement in question.

He's not to be trusted either?

Well...soldiers who are held prisoner admit to all sorts of things too.

His admission is pure capitulation, in my estimation. That is, unless there are specific incidents that are more specific that "someone" shouting obscenities.

Thats all I want: evidence. The guy lost his job, afterall....im not going to just give blanket support for that.

No one's asking you to that I know of.

Are you saying the President and Chancellor were fired that they didn't resign?

I put the same question to you that I've put to others here: specific events have been described, the general atmosphere of the campus community has been described, and multiple individuals in authority have attested to those facts.

What evidence would satisfy you?

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

My point is can you prove that there was actual systemic racism within the university system itself?

It's not on me to prove, I didn't make the claim.

What I have demonstrated, repeatedly, is that those (that we have no reason to doubt) actually in the situation attest to the systemic racism that the students alleged.

My point is how far do you want to keep moving the goal posts?

We have every reason to doubt people who refuse to bring proof.

With your stance here, we had no business questioning the "rape victim" at Duke....or the "rape victim" at UVA.....or Michael Brown's "hands up" and/or "kneeling".

We live in a world of lies, deceit, and proof.

What proof do you require?

Leave out the red herring.

Tell us, aside from detailed testimony about several events, detailed descriptions of the general racial atmosphere at the college, statements from all sides attesting to the presence of these issues and accepting the truth about the events ...

How can anyone satisfy your need for evidence? It's been provided over and over and over.

Followup: why should we care?

I would like to see the same proof that would be needed for me to demand your firing.

I'm pretty sure that you'd ask for more than 4 people who I can get to agree with me.

a reply to: stevieray

Spare us the exposition of the obvious.

Tell us what that proof would be then.

What will you personally accept as evidence in this matter?

a reply to: Gryphon66

It may have been supplied...and it may be a poor excuse. Im trying to "catch up" on what is going on here in between tasks at work, and have put in zero effort looking for details. If you would be so kind as to throw a couple of links in the next post or two it certainly would help me share your exposure to information.

You know me, Gryphon...i am anything but unreasonable. Lazy? Maybe. Certainly not having enough spare time to try to participate here. But i want to try. LOL

originally posted by: stevieray

I would like to see the same proof that would be needed for me to demand your firing.

I'm pretty sure that you'd ask for more than 4 people who I can get to agree with me.

Okay, what would that proof be?

You're desperately trying to personalize it, but not answering the question.