Very simple argument against abortion

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Maybe you should provide some cream to help with the chaffing.

a reply to: Aazadan

why are you in favor of it being the women? or more importantly, why are yours or mine's opinion on the matter worth any consideration on the part of the mother who happens to be in this position? some women would risk it all to bring a baby into the world, some might not be willing to do so. any women who is in this position would probably have friends and family consoling them to not risk it in many cases....why do you think that would be? maybe because adult women have had plenty of time to develope relationships with other human beings who have grown close enough to them to not want to see them harmed? they have also had enough time to obtain various responsibilities to those who are closest to them.....like their living children..... unless you are willing to face those living children and explain why their mother should die, I'd advise leaving that decision on the women who finds herself in that position. IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! after all you aren't being asked to sacrifice crap, are you?

originally posted by: Thetan
a reply to: [post=20011513]Krazysh0t[/post

You presume too much, I don't think ethical matters are usually purely right or wrong. In fact they are usually more right than wrong or vicea versa. Which premise do you disagree with?

So what are you trying to tell us with this thread? You don't seem to be against making abortion illegal due to how you responded to my initial post. You appear to be admitting that abortion may be a necessary decision a woman makes (albeit an unethical one). So are you just creating this thread to tell everyone that you don't like abortions?

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Aazadan

why are you in favor of it being the women? or more importantly, why are yours or mine's opinion on the matter worth any consideration on the part of the mother who happens to be in this position? some women would risk it all to bring a baby into the world, some might not be willing to do so. any women who is in this position would probably have friends and family consoling them to not risk it in many cases....why do you think that would be? maybe because adult women have had plenty of time to develope relationships with other human beings who have grown close enough to them to not want to see them harmed? they have also had enough time to obtain various responsibilities to those who are closest to them.....like their living children..... unless you are willing to face those living children and explain why their mother should die, I'd advise leaving that decision on the women who finds herself in that position. IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! after all you aren't being asked to sacrifice crap, are you?

The OP's argument is that the baby is innocent, not that the mother is innocent. If abortion is wrong, then why should the mother be allowed to kill her innocent child? The path that creates the most life is to make the mother risk it. Then the innocent baby survives, and the mother may (though not usually) survive.

As another poster mentioned on the first page, there's a special place in heaven for all the aborted babies that meet such a sad fate. Don't you think God would give the mothers a nice afterlife too?

I'm just arguing from the OP's logic.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I'm giving you an argument. The conclusion to the argument is that abortion is unethical with the exception of one case. Under what conditions it should be legal is another thread entirely. Either refute it, agree with it, or don't participate.

a reply to: Aazadan

Self defense does not necessarily require intent. One can defend themselves from something that is not trying to hurt them, but none the less is.

Er, actually, this is God we're talking about. That Russian woman someone posted about saw the babies getting torn to shreds by demons, but I digress.

The crux of this issue, for me, is that life isn't inherently sacred. I am against suffering, but death? Death is a good thing. I am saying that abortion is a good thing. I am saying it is not a bad thing, bit a lot of people who say it's a bad thing have not and will never be forced to make that choice.

By the way, yeast is a living thing. Guess everyone who gets a yeast infection better not get rid of it intentionally...

originally posted by: Thetan
a reply to: Aazadan

Self defense does not necessarily require intent. One can defend themselves from something that is not trying to hurt them, but none the less is.

This line of thinking justifies all abortion. Pregnancy carries risk the entire time, can create long term issues, and puts a huge strain on the mothers body. Not to mention it can seriously impact the mothers ability to work and continue to pay for living. So are you now saying all mothers to be can abort their babies as needed as an act of self defense? Whether on the operating table on the last day of pregnancy or sitting in the womb on the 100th day the baby isn't trying to harm the mother.

originally posted by: Eilasvaleleyn

The crux of this issue, for me, is that life isn't inherently sacred. I am against suffering, but death? Death is a good thing. I am saying that abortion is a good thing. I am saying it is not a bad thing, bit a lot of people who say it's a bad thing have not and will never be forced to make that choice.

Hungry, neglected, unwanted LIVING children is bad.

Abortion can help prevent that.

I was on the line with abortion in that saying that I did not agree with it but think that women have the right to decide to end a pregnancy. Now I disagree.

My disagreement and change of perception did not happen from religious or "pro-life" qctivism. It is a moral decision in that believing killing another human is wrong. Unless self defense (in which personally I would rather die than kill another).

My change in perception happened in developmental psychology class where we learned of the development of a human being that is IN THE FETUS STAGE of defelopement.

Most people who think abortion is OK does not know about the science of conceptions and childbirth. Most abortions are carried out before the 13 weeks after conception, and there is a point during that time where the human fetus nerve endings are developing so it is actually one of the most painful times for this to happen, they just do not have the muscles to show that they are receiving so much pain at this point they are trapped.

My ex girlfriend told me once that if she got pregnant while we were together she would abort it. This was still before I was ignorant to the stages of development of the human fetus. I think that she was just ignorant as well and I'm very happy it never happened while we were together and I hope she never gets pregnant until she wants to.

Her saying that was still hurtful because I still knew at that point that if that happened age would be getting rid of something that could turn into a living human being and it would share half my DNA. Who I am now, I will not have sex with anyone. And if I do in the future I will ask them about what they would do in the situation of an "unplanned" pregnancy. It is planned if you decide to have sex that is that. It would be ignorant to think anything but sterilization is %100 as far as contraception goes.

I do not want to be an accomplice in ending innocent life and a human fetus is the most innocent form of human life therefore I will do my part and live my life by not putting a woman in the position where she has that "choice".

In no way I am hateful against those who have had abortions, I believe they are all deceived and if it was for medical reasons that is between them and their conscience i cannot ever be in their situation because I am male so I cannot judge them.

A woman choosing go end a pregnancy because she's not ready for children or does not want children is murder. Im not going to stand outside a clinic and scream it in their face or join a side like pro choice because after that it's impersonal and political and it will not change the fact they have been deceived.

This practices go all the way back to ancient times when worshippers of dark entities like baal (self/satan) and molech would sacrifice their firstborn children to these "gods" now these beings still exist and they are still receiving sacrifices humans. It doesn't make any difference throwing the newborn into the flames or drugging it so it's expelled or having a doctor pull it out. The woman is selfish to preserve her lifestyle and kills it.

originally posted by: sociolpath

A woman choosing go end a pregnancy because she's not ready for children or does not want children is murder.

NO, its her business and no one else's

a reply to: Annee

No one has answered my question I've posted before - what if the father wants the kid to be born and take care of it?

What if the father wants the kid aborted but the mother doesn't and forces him to pay child support?

originally posted by: SonOfThor
a reply to: Annee

No one has answered my question I've posted before - what if the father wants the kid to be born and take care of it?

What if the father wants the kid aborted but the mother doesn't and forces him to pay child support?

I have answered this before. My response is not a solution. Or one you will accept.

For eons - - women have been suppressed and taken the blame for everything related to birth. Unwanted pregnancy, birth defects, not producing a male heir or no heir at all, etc.

When a woman got pregnant and the man left her, she was told it was her fault. She picked the wrong man.

So, men - - pick the right woman. If she gets pregnant and you want the child - - hopefully you picked the right woman. If not, its your fault.

Today women have the power and rights to their bodies. Period!

originally posted by: Thetan
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I'm giving you an argument. The conclusion to the argument is that abortion is unethical with the exception of one case. Under what conditions it should be legal is another thread entirely. Either refute it, agree with it, or don't participate.

I did respond to it. I said that things aren't so simply black and white. I'm just trying to get a feel for the point of the thread. Are you just trying to let everyone know that you think that abortion is unethical? Is us knowing your opinion on abortion supposed to accomplish anything or inform us of anything? I mean what we have here is a pure opinion debate. Neither side can be more correct than the other since both sides rely on differing premises to build their argument.

Are you trying to convince me to not get an abortion (or have a girl I get pregnant get an abortion)? What if, I recognize the unethicalness of abortion, but still feel it is ultimately the best choice given our financial assets and ability to take care of the child? Should we, in that case, shoulder some guilt? Do you disapprove of it? You clearly aren't looking to legislate against it (at least you claim not to). I mean I'm not entirely convinced that your argument is going to be enough to sway me or someone on the fence away from getting an abortion.

a reply to: Annee

Okay so it is her business and no one elses, but it is still murder. That doesn't change whether who's business it is. You have the same knee jerk reaction as all the other self centered feminist women who in favor of abortion. You don't care about women or babies but the illusion that women can be free from man and abortion is a means for a woman to be free. Not. It took a man to make that baby a woman didn't just self create it.

And its not a woman's body because the fetus has a separate unique DNA than the woman's body therefore it is not her body but inside of her and excluding rape she chose to let it inside of her.

You are deceived and I doubt you have done your own research as to how a baby developed from the first cell division to birth.

a reply to: sociolpath

How long would that fetus survive outside of the woman's body?

a reply to: Annee

I am usually not very active on these abortion threads, so apologies if I hadn't seen your take on this question before.

I understand your take on the first scenario, but I don't want to put words in your mouth for the opposite scenario, i.e. if the man doesn't want to be a father, can the woman force him to pay child support? I take it your answer would be yes, but again correct me if I perceived wrong.

I agree with the essence of your argument - not to be lame (I know contracts are not a 'sexy' thing, but I work in contract law) - I think the best solution if you will, would be establish a legally binding contract prior to intercourse of what happens in the event of pregnancy.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

not very long. i dont suspect a newborn baby would survive very long naked alone and abandoned in the elements either. maybe a day?

a reply to: sociolpath

But said baby can survive outside of the womb, no?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

yes but the baby is still completely reliant on the mother for protection and care to keep it alive. can the woman say this came out of my body so i can get rid of it? yes she can and there have been some crazy women who are now locked up who did that.