Very simple argument against abortion

a reply to: Krazysh0t
Either the argument is sound and valid, or it is not. Irrespective of the decisions people make, abortion is in most or all cases either objectively wrong, or it isn't. My argument proposes that it is wrong in most cases. Do you agree with the argument or disagree? Or do you think that the argument is valid, but not sound?

a reply to: Thetan

Not irrelevant at all.
As a male I can not empathise what it feels like to be pregnant neither can any male so what right do we have telling a woman what she should do with her body?.
How are you going to force a woman who does not want a baby to carry the child?.

a reply to: boymonkey74
I answer some questions. This thread is about my argument and it's validity/soundness. It's difficult, isn't it? This is a very emotionally charged subject, that's why most people's comments so far have been so inimical to clear thinking; it's hard to think clearly about things which are so profoundly charged with unpleasant emotion. It takes a brave mind indeed to plunge into the muck of such unpleasant topics and seek truth.

a reply to: Thetan

I'm not so narrow minded as you. I don't label something as purely right or purely wrong. Even you have a listed exception where you would approve an abortion. I mean, going by your logic, it isn't the baby's fault that the mother's life is in danger or anything.

I view abortion as a decision that the mother (and father) must make between themselves depending on their financial support, their familial support, and their maturity. It certainly isn't anyone else's decision to make for them.

a reply to: Thetan

You are just looking at things as right and wrong period. Life isn't like this.
You are just focusing on just a very small view and not a bigger picture that would help anyone other then yourself.
I'm not being emotional you are, I'm looking at the whole picture on abortion but you are just putting out an emotional view that it is wrong while missing every reason why it happens and every solution to decreasing it.
So just keep bleating how wrong it is I'm out.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I agree with everything you stated. Personally, as a libertarian, I have my own opinions and belief systems on when life begins, etc. but I don't think the Government should be there to force those beliefs on others. Some believe life means being self sustaining and sentient, others believe it begins at conception. Either way, at what magical moment in time (i.e. at what minute / second / millisecond) does the life actually begin? I am extremely pro-life personally, but very pro choice legally (how ya like them apples?)

One thought I always have is when we hear the phrase "Her body, her choice". Well, what if the father wants the woman to have an abortion, but she doesn't, then comes after him for child care payments? Yet, if he wants her to keep it and she wants an abortion, the father is SOL.

I will also add, that a lot of people may have a different take on things if they ever end up knowing people that have gone through fertility issues, etc. My tune changed on things like abortion when some close friends of mine ended up having to go down the path of IVF because of a bunch of stuff my buddy was exposed to in the military. Hearing how much money they spend just trying to have a chance at being parents, makes one quite retrospective about this topic.

a reply to: [post=20011513]Krazysh0t[/post

You presume too much, I don't think ethical matters are usually purely right or wrong. In fact they are usually more right than wrong or vicea versa. Which premise do you disagree with?

a reply to: boymonkey74That isn't an argument.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Thetan

I'm not so narrow minded as you. I don't label something as purely right or purely wrong. Even you have a listed exception where you would approve an abortion. I mean, going by your logic, it isn't the baby's fault that the mother's life is in danger or anything.

I view abortion as a decision that the mother (and father) must make between themselves depending on their financial support, their familial support, and their maturity. It certainly isn't anyone else's decision to make for them.

Here, here.

I don't know if it would be off topic to discuss what the OP thinks about things like in vitro fertilization? I.e. using science to help procreate?

originally posted by: Thetan
All intentional killing of innocent human beings is wrong.
Abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent human being.
Therefore, abortion is wrong..

Well... society kills people all the time in the form of wars or as punishment for crimes -- or simply by default by not preventing deaths that it could prevent, such as the 30,000 people a year or so that die every year on U.S. highways in car crashes.

Society has determined that abortions are okay by law. If you don't like it, work to change the law or find another society. Simple as that.

the arguments about abortion were debated for years before Roe v Wade....anti-abortionists just need to look at them from that time period....it's called research....maybe we can fight the civil war again, too

You are mostly all dolts. The ONLY thing to be said about aborting a pregnancy is:

Abortion should remain legal and be available to any woman that wants to end her pregnancy BUT we should live in a world where no woman needs to have one.

So...
Ladies: stop having unprotected sex.
Guys: stop having unprotected sex.
Rapists: stop raping and/or kill yourself.
Society: stop #ing around and put more money in to finding cures for birth defects rather than wars and such.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I'm not so narrow minded as you.

If you really wanted to debate honestly with someone would you use so little tact? I agree with your position, but your style is abrasive.

Lighten up, Francis.

a reply to: Thetan

All intentional killing of innocent human beings is wrong.
Abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent human being.

Simple and to the point.
Obvious, plain as day.

Besides that, there's enough birth control out there today to stop-up every reproductive system on the planet from conceiving a human infant. Here in the second decade of the 21st century, it's no longer a pill or a device or a rubber that just can't be had.

It's an issue of blatant irresponsibility depending on an escape route that costs little compared to the human life they never had to know. Never had to say goodbye to... never had look at in the eyes.

...

a reply to: jimmyx

maybe we can fight the civil war again, too

I don't agree with wars, but I would agree we need to allow some states to secede. I would like to see four or five smaller countries to replace the current U.S. I think we would all be better represented and live happier lives with smaller Government and the opportunity to be governed by entities more in-line with our regional beliefs.

a reply to: Metallicus

I can agree with that.

originally posted by: Thetan
The mother has the perogative because it is an act of self defense. While it would certainly be optimal for the father to get a say it isn't his perogative, just as it isn't his perogative to decide if she shoots the man trying to murder her. I compare them only because they are both acts of self defense, not becasue the situations are similiar to each other.

It's not self defense though. You yourself said the baby is innocent, if it were self defense there would need to be some sort of intent on the part of the baby. If one of the two is going to die either way, why is it the innocent baby that you favor killing?

I wonder if there's a special place in heaven for all the women that died in childbirth like there is for all the aborted babies.

originally posted by: Cinrad
Why can't science give us an answer as to when a fertilized egg becomes a human being?

Because there's multiple stages. You have conception, but at that moment it's just a lump of cells, no more human than the egg and sperm it was a moment prior. Is that a human? Then you have the development all the way to a baby, is that a human? Humans aren't sentient until 2 years of age, developmentally it's much closer to a flower than an individual.

Most of the time it doesn't even get to that question because abortions happen in the first 6 months... is it a person then? There's not really an easy answer to that question and that's why everyone argues.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Cinrad

When that fetus can support itself out of the womb.

I want to see the 5 year old that can support itself. Children cannot support themselves.

originally posted by: Thetan
Here is a very simple argument against abortion.

All intentional killing of innocent human beings is wrong.
Abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent human being.
Therefore, abortion is wrong.

One exception. If the mothers life was to be in imminent danger if she were to have the child, then the killing of the fetus would be a foreseen variable, but not the intent.

And the logical argument for abortion, it's none of your f*cking business what a woman does with her own body.

a reply to: Metallicus

I've made this clear many times while on ATS, I don't apologize for my abrasiveness.