Christians and War

a reply to: JackReyes

It is easy to reconcile being a soldier and being a Christian.

Using Christ's own words "render onto God what is God's and render onto Caesar what is Caesar's".

One can be a part of the world without becoming worldly. I, as a soldier, can serve a nation and it's peoples and still spiritually belong to God and Christ.

When one fight simply for the joy of fighting it is a sin (without doubt). When one fights to free others from rape, beatings and oppression how can that be a sin?

a reply to: JackReyes

Are you suggesting taking a side can only be done in politics?

What kind of sadist of a man uses a whip, on other men, in the name of God?

a reply to: Akragon

'perishing by the sword " is preferable to dying in a hospital bed.

originally posted by: JackReyes
a reply to: Klassified

Just submitting the claim means nothing. Perhaps point out where the message of God's word is wrong. That would be something.

You've hit on the crux of the matter yourself. "God's word" is open to interpretation. That's why the myriad of Christian denominatioms exist. You're all eclectic, but don't dare admit it. Your interpretation is no better or worse than any other Christian. And including atheists under that same umbrella is hubris. Atheists neither believe in, nor answer to the Christian god, or the bible. We don't believe in Satan, sin, or redemption.

a reply to: Akragon

Yes all true,but examine the put up your sword quote. what does it actually mean? It means do not use force where nothing but a verbal slight or insult was used. using violence to solve a quarrel over nothing. Stating that those who use violence for no reason other than to protect one self or others will get violence back. Hence dying by the sword.

Yeah violence and killing isnt cool but in certain situations it is excused.

a reply to: JackReyes

You wrote QUOTE "You should really try to understand Jesus' mind by reading what he said, by reading the four gospels. Jesus never committed a single act of aggression against a single human being, like you claim."

What on earth ? !

I cannot see how any thinking person could possibly come up with what you said about 'Jesus never committed a single act of aggression' in view of the fact of the riot in the Court of the Gentiles during a feast (Pesach) aka the Cleansing of the Temple which was a VERY aggressive act with the use of whips and cords which were used 'to drive out the money changers' - clearly this violent act of aggression against the Temple was one of the pivotal reasons why he was turned over to the Romans. Why else would he need a whip made of ropes to drive the money changers out and turn over their tables spilling coins in every direction if not involved in what we would to-day call a terrorist act of aggression?

John 2:15 / Matthew 21:12 / Mark 11:15 / Luke 19:45

"Ho Iesous made a whip from ropes and chased all the money changers out of the Temple and drove out the sheep and cattle, scattered the money changers' coins over the floor, and turned over their tables."

Why do you persist in your delusion of a pacifist 'Jesus' when he was anything but that ? Pacifists do not get crucified.



see

originally posted by: Klassified
You've hit on the crux of the matter yourself. "God's word" is open to interpretation. That's why the myriad of Christian denominatioms exist. You're all eclectic, but don't dare admit it. Your interpretation is no better or worse than any other Christian.

When it comes down to it, it would also seem that many Christians bind God's creation to their own limits. But, when we feel our ideology and interpretation is superior, for whatever reason, discussion becomes preaching. An exercise in futility of there ever was one!

But, I guess when one feels their thoughts are inspired by God, and that anything beyond is flawed by default, it leaves little room for such things to exist beyond the mind of the individual. Kind of a catch 22.

And including atheists under that same umbrella is hubris. Atheists neither believe in, nor answer to the Christian god, or the bible. We don't believe in Satan, sin, or redemption.

Is that a true Atheist versus a fake one?

Ill assume its intentionally ironic, in the context of the thread.

a reply to: JackReyes

These are false Christians. All throughout history and today, even on this website, almost all people claiming to be Christian ARE NOT Christian. And they don't even know it.

I sense the 'no true Scotsmen' is near by...

a reply to: Klassified

Yea and atheist are also eclectic and under an umbrella of hubris. Maybe we should stop putting people in a box

So because Atheists have fought in wars can we claim all atheists are war hungry?

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: Klassified

Yea and atheist are also eclectic and under an umbrella of hubris. Maybe we should stop putting people in a box

So because Atheists have fought in wars can we claim all atheists are war hungry?

1. I have no problem with being called eclectic. It's in my avatar.
2. I never said Christians were war hungry.
3. I think you may want to read the post again. I said "including atheists under that same umbrella is hubris." I didn't say "under an umbrella of hubris".

a reply to: JackReyes

There are many more reasons why people who claim they are christians are not. Atheists don't hate religious people for what the leader of that religion did, but rather for the simple fact that there is no evidence that anything any religion is saying is true.

For instance, van you prove that Satan is manipulating these people? Can you even prove that satan even exists? With hard empirical evidence?
You can't and it's not always hate it's more that they find you ignorant for blaming good things on miracles and bad things on the devil.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: JackReyes

Are you suggesting taking a side can only be done in politics?

A Christian does not take sides in political disputes or get involved in the politics of this world.

Jesus did not. And Christians follow Jesus' example.

In fact Jesus knew the ruler of the world is Satan. And Satan even tempted Jesus by offering him ruler-ship over all the kingdoms of the world. That would not have been a temptation if Satan did not have the authority or power to give it to him.

And Jesus himself said that the ruler of the world had no power over him.

And then he said that his followers were no part of the world. This is referring to wicked mankind. Christians maintain strict Christian neutrality. They do not partake in worldly wars of this world, of which Satan is the ruler, and they certainly do not take political office, or even get involved in worldly politics. Their ruler is Jesus, and their government is a heavenly one.

a reply to: JackReyes

You keep going to Jesus' involvement in politics, and yet, it is largely irrelevant to my line of questioning. It could even be said that one who is against politics is taking a side.

Meaning, just because one perceives a lack of political involvement, it does not exclude someone from taking sides. This is why I asked if you felt that sides can only be taken in politics, because that seems to be what you are suggesting. If that is an accurate assertion, then I can see where you are coming from even if I disagree.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: JackReyes

You keep going to Jesus' involvement in politics, and yet, it is largely irrelevant to my line of questioning. It could even be said that one who is against politics is taking a side.

Meaning, just because one perceives a lack of political involvement, it does not exclude someone from taking sides. This is why I asked if you felt that sides can only be taken in politics, because that seems to be what you are suggesting. If that is an accurate assertion, then I can see where you are coming from even if I disagree.

A Christian cannot take sides in worldly politics.

Jesus, while on earth refused. In fact, once the Jews tried to seize him and and make him king, and yet he refused.

He is now ruling in heaven as king of kings and lord of lords. He is a real and powerful ruler. And his Father, Jehovah, has given him the earth as his rightful inheritance.

Christians are subjects, citizens of God's kingdom, not of any earthly government, which are all in the hands of Satan the Devil.

Jesus said he had conquered the world, and the real ruler of the world, Satan the Devil, had no hold on him.

Soon, Jesus will come and fight for righteousness and justice. Satan is gathering all earthly rulers to the battle of Armageddon where they will fight against him.

Christians are ambassadors and emissaries of Jesus' kingdom. They proclaim the year of goodwill on the part of God toward mankind. They are united by his holy spirit in peace and love, no matter what language, racial background, sex, age, or nationality. Christians are subjects of God's kingdom and not of any earthly government.

They do not get involved in its politics, or in its wars, which are all in the purview of Satan the Devil.

a reply to: JackReyes

We seem to have a total communication breakdown! I'm not sure how to rectify that, so I will leave you to it.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: JackReyes

We seem to have a total communication breakdown! I'm not sure how to rectify that, so I will leave you to it.

Ok.

Nevertheless, as you see, you were answered, the same thing, two times. Both times it was left quite clear that Christians cannot get involved in politics. The first time, when you were told this directly. you said you imagined that I was implying it was okay to take side in politics. So there was indeed a huge communication breakdown.

But I didn't know how to state it more clearly, so repeated it a second time.

As you said, if you are still unable for some reason to comprehend what is being told you, or are interpreting things to mean the opposite of what they say, you are not alone. Hundreds of millions of people reason like that.

Well, now I'm fascinated! You speak with such confidence. Lets dissect this.

originally posted by: JackReyes

Ok.

Nevertheless, as you see, you were answered, the same thing, two times. Both times it was left quite clear that Christians cannot get involved in politics.

No argument there. Though, to nitpick, 'should not' might be more accurate than 'can not.'

The first time, when you were told this directly. you said you imagined that I was implying it was okay to take side in politics.

Lets be clear, I didnt say or imagine anything of the sort. Whatever led you to believe that was the case is mistaken.

You were quite clear about your feelings towards Christianity and political involvement. I actually dont necessarily disagree either. My line of questioning was explicitly about arenas outside of politics, but you keep explaining the premise within politics.

So, when I ask if your statement about not taking sides applies outside of the political arena, repeating that Christians should not be political misses the mark.

As you said, if you are still unable for some reason to comprehend what is being told you, or are interpreting things to mean the opposite of what they say, you are not alone. Hundreds of millions of people reason like that.

Much like the claim that I was "imagining you were claiming it is okay for Christians to be involved in politics," this is an incorrect assertion as I said nothing of the sort.

I am curious about your beliefs about taking sides outside of politics. Especially how it would be reconciled with the prophecies in Revelations. It was intended to be a question that explored your OP in an apolitical manner, since, as you said, Christians cannot be involved in politics.

a reply to: Serdgiam

You are correct. A Christian "should not". But a true Christian cannot. By involving themselves in the political arena they are betraying the faith, if they are true Christians:

(James 4:4) Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God.

I apologize, as I didn't realize that you asked about taking sides outside the political arena. But I'm not sure what you mean by that.

What sides are there outside of the political arena that you are referring to?

a reply to: JackReyes

Well, lets go back to the original post I made speaking about the bankers. It seems that Jesus took the side that what they were doing was wrong. However, in your posts, it is suggested no side was taken and even that he lost control.

Another would be the conflict prophesied in the book of revelations. It seems that not only is a side taken, but a war is waged on the premise of one side being righteous.

In my perspective, sides are taken in nearly every arena of human interaction, with politics being only one small facet among many problematic areas.