Transgender woman Tara Hudson loses all-male prison appeal

a reply to: grainofsand

No, what is happening here is that you are taking the word of those with no experience in this issue because they are Brits. A non-Brit with many years experience is discounted because he's not British? No way to learn anything there man. Oh, and elitism doesn't move me. Prisons are prisons. They are different in degrees but basically the same in structure(inmates) on the inside.

a reply to: peck420

Nothing shaken. Just if you want to get a dirty look, or two... Call them guards. It never, ever fails. It's a low bit of fun, but fun never the less.

Unless I don't know 'em. Then it's always officer. Kinda like I never call cops cops. They're always officer.

It's just polite, and why give needless offense?

So, no. Nothing shaken, my friend.

originally posted by: intrepid
Prisons are prisons.

No they are not.
Are you really saying that a Canadian prison is the same as a US prison, and the same as a UK prison?
I disagree.

...and it seems then that you are basing your original assertion about the experience in a UK female prison solely on your experience in Canadian prisons. Okay, so not a factually based assertion then, just opinion, unless you are yet to share your intimate knowledge of the UK prison system for females?

*Edit*
And yep, I'll believe ex-con females I know who have served time in that prison over someone with zero experience of the UK's female prisons.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: intrepid
Prisons are prisons.

No they are not.
Are you really saying that a Canadian prison is the same as a US prison, and the same as a UK prison?
I disagree.

You didn't say anything about US prisons. They are VERY different in many ways. Nice try though.

...and it seems then that you are basing your original assertion about the experience in a UK female prison solely on your experience in Canadian prisons. Okay, so not a factually based assertion then, just opinion, unless you are yet to share your intimate knowledge of the UK prison system for females?

So basically your whole point is that because I'm not British I have no valid opinion? Guess what dude, Britain ain't that different or special. Getting tired of this attitude from some.

originally posted by: intrepid
Wanna bet? They are worse than the men.

How's that? How is it worse for her to be with women than to be raped by a man? I don't expect her to have a great time in there, but it sounds like a nice prison, as prisons go...

s/he

The fact that you take the extra time and energy to put that slash in there ... it's really surprising to me.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: intrepid
Wanna bet? They are worse than the men.

How's that? How is it worse for her to be with women than to be raped by a man? I don't expect her to have a great time in there, but it sounds like a nice prison, as prisons go...

The female inmates are quite nasty. Some are downright scary.

s/he

The fact that you take the extra time and energy to put that slash in there ... it's really surprising to me.

I do that to not upset you guys.

Prison isn't like "Orange Is The New Black" on Netflix...people need to remember that.

a reply to: intrepid

You said 'prisons are prisons', and as we are discussing prisons of two different countries it was perfectly valid for me to say you were wrong and introducing a 3rd nation to make the point.

I don't understand why you are making the Brit/Canadian nationality point, that is a distortion of my words, completely.
For all I know you could have had reciprocal training with HM Prison Service in the UK, perhaps an international secondment/observer posting.
Your nationality is irrelevant to me, just your first hand knowledge and experience of female prisons in the UK, and right now I believe you have none because you have failed to share it here to support your original assertion.

I am at least basing my opinion on testimony from a few females I know who have served time at Eastwood Park...I am not the one making assertions.

originally posted by: grainofsand
I am at least basing my opinion on testimony from a few females I know who have served time at Eastwood Park...I am not the one making assertions.

Are either of your friends transgender? How much time did they spend there? Did they do time with a transgender that had it easy? A transgender at all? Were they in PC or GP?

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: grainofsand
I am at least basing my opinion on testimony from a few females I know who have served time at Eastwood Park...I am not the one making assertions.

Are either of your friends transgender? How much time did they spend there? Did they do time with a transgender that had it easy? A transgender at all? Were they in PC or GP?

Again, I will be happy to move on to your questions when you answer my perfectly respectful question which inspired our conversation.

What is your specific knowledge/experience of female prisons in the UK which supports your original assertion?
If you have none then that's fine, I'll accept it as opinion based solely on your experiences working in the Canadian prison system.

originally posted by: intrepid
I do that to not upset you guys.

Well, I don't know about the other guys, but to me, if you're gonna call her "he", just call her "he". If you're trying to be respectful by morphing the pronouns, it doesn't work. Calling her "s/he" or "it" is just as disrespectful as calling her a man, IMO.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: grainofsand
I am at least basing my opinion on testimony from a few females I know who have served time at Eastwood Park...I am not the one making assertions.

Are either of your friends transgender? How much time did they spend there? Did they do time with a transgender that had it easy? A transgender at all? Were they in PC or GP?

Again, I will be happy to move on to your questions when you answer my perfectly respectful question which inspired our conversation.

What is your specific knowledge/experience of female prisons in the UK which supports your original assertion?
If you have none then that's fine, I'll accept it as opinion based solely on your experiences working in the Canadian prison system.

Which you are going to do anyway so please tell me about these "qualifications" your "2", er, um "few" female acquaintances. If I'm to be vetted so are they. The questions are above.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: intrepid
I do that to not upset you guys.

Well, I don't know about the other guys, but to me, if you're gonna call her "he", just call her "he". If you're trying to be respectful by morphing the pronouns, it doesn't work. Calling her "s/he" or "it" is just as disrespectful as calling her a man, IMO.

No pleasing some I guess.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: intrepid
I do that to not upset you guys.

Well, I don't know about the other guys, but to me, if you're gonna call her "he", just call her "he". If you're trying to be respectful by morphing the pronouns, it doesn't work. Calling her "s/he" or "it" is just as disrespectful as calling her a man, IMO.

To be honest I don't think it was malicious intent by intrepid, technically Tara is a man because she still has a penis and will be until the procedure is complete but identifies as a woman. It may be confusing to some as to what to say "she" or "he".

a reply to: intrepid

Three actually, but I asked first and you have deflected ever since, so are you going to admit you have no experience/knowledge of female prisons in the UK so we can move on?
You made the original assertion and I asked you what it was based on. It is common decorum to answer a question first before asking questions in response.

I'm happy to walk away from this thread if you either answer my original question regarding your specific experience/knowledge of female prisons in the UK, or you concede that it is opinion alone, and the original assertion you made was not factually based.

...I repeat, I am more likely to believe real people who I know who have served time at Eastwood Park than someone with zero experience of female prisons in the UK.

a reply to: grainofsand

I have no experience in female UK prison but extensive experience in both male and female for 15 years. OK. Now tell me about these women that did time. The questions are above.

originally posted by: sosobad
To be honest I don't think it was malicious intent by intrepid, technically Tara is a man because she still has a penis and will be until the procedure is complete but identifies as a woman.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that excuse. I hear it all the time. I can't expect others to have the same respect for people that I do, and call them what they call themselves. Some just HAVE to get that little "dig" of disapproval in there by refusing to use the correct pronoun. No interest in arguing the point, I was just surprised at intrepid's language.

You all call her whatever you want to and so will I. There's no confusion on my part because Tara is a woman in her mind, and probably always has been, just like me. She was just unfortunate enough to be born with opposite-gender organs.

You call her whatever makes you feel good.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Yeah bit others don't. Therefore I go down the middle. And quite frankly I'm starting to get a little annoyed at this crap. I meant no disrespect. I was trying to respect EVERYONE. Cripes, get over it.

a reply to: intrepid

Cool, we got there, your original assertions were just opinion based.
Now regarding your questions, one knew a post-op female there during her time who was treated sympathetically, and the other two tell me the culture at Eastwood Park is generally not really violent unless there are disputes over drugs/smokes/coffee.

But again though, I've only shared opinion based on personal testimony of real people I know.
I do not expect anyone to believe my opinion based on hearsay and anecdotal stories, and that is why I made no assertions.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: sosobad
To be honest I don't think it was malicious intent by intrepid, technically Tara is a man because she still has a penis and will be until the procedure is complete but identifies as a woman.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that excuse. I hear it all the time. I can't expect others to have the same respect for people that I do, and call them what they call themselves. Some just HAVE to get that little "dig" of disapproval in there by refusing to use the correct pronoun. No interest in arguing the point, I was just surprised at intrepid's language.

You all call her whatever you want to and so will I. There's no confusion on my part because Tara is a woman in her mind, and probably always has been, just like me. She was just unfortunate enough to be born with opposite-gender organs.

You call her whatever makes you feel good.

How did this turn into something about me? When did I say anything derogatory against tara in this thread? I gave an explanation as to why it might have been said, I think you need to get off your high horse and quit looking down your nose at others thinking you are the end authority on all of this.