2015 DNA test of dust on Shroud: what this reveals in favor or against its authenticity?

I think it's difficult to speak of the "authenticity" of the Shroud, since we're not even sure what that would even mean. If somebody thinks that this is somehow a cloth that was used to cover the recently crucified Jesus Christ, the Son of God, while he laid in his tomb awaiting resurrection, then they have a whole lot of other things to more clearly define and prove to be true long before they get to the cloth.

Once you assume a lot of basic things, then it's easier to jump forward and start hypothesizing about others. "Assuming Superman exists, does this prove or disprove his vulnerability to Kryptonite?"

originally posted by: Vasa Croe
Wasn't this Shroud carbon dated to show it's age?

Sure, but you know carbon dating is only valid when it helps verify what a believer wants it to prove. Otherwise, it's very glitchy and probably the tool of Satan.

I don't get it. Wasn't using shroud to wrap the dead a custom at certain times. How then could one shroud suddenly be of divine importance. Another extraordinary claim which falls short of extraordinary evidence but yet they believe...carry on.

a reply to: DerekJR321

Well, if the idea is to date a composite of an original linen cloth plus all the repairs in cottom that it experienced along many centuries we can say that such an objective was full reached in 1988.

Now, if the idea is to date the original object as it was before to be reweaved and reknitting by french restoration experts and Italian nuns that is a very different story.

Pls read
www.shroud.com...

shroudstory.wordpress.com...

greatshroudofturinfaq.com...

www.wnd.com...

Thanks for your attention,

The angel of Lightness

a reply to: toktaylor

Excuse me but yours is the claim about the divine importance. This thread was created in the Science & Technology forum to explore the possibilities of correct dating of an object that was repaired several times with other materials different than the ones it was originally made of.

The shroud from the perspective of this forum is treated for its undoubtful Historic importance, since if it is showed to belong to Joshua Bar Joseph, the Historic Jesus of Nazareth, a wise man that spoke Aramaic as well as Latin and Greek, it would be Historic evidence of a major figure whose leadership was determinant to define the constructive imagination, the investigation character and the inventive mentality of the western civilization.

Without the contribution of Christ, as a key figure which linked the traditional monoteism around the idea of a supreme creative intelligence of the middle east with the apparition of philosophy in the Classic Ioanic civilization it would not exist the unique conditions that allowed in the west the birth of the medieval mysticsm that produced the alchemy, the scientific revolution of the renaissance, the British industrial revolution, the German idealism, The Russian flourish of abstraction in Arts and mathematics, the French humanism that stimulated the advance in biology and medicine, and the Technological revolution occurred in America.

All those events didn't take place in any other part of the world different that the Christendom, neither under the Islam, neither in India , neither in the Far East nor in Africa, can you guess why? Since only our civilization produced the necessary mentality that push the ascend of Man even out of the limits of our planet: when man under the assumption that it is part of a perfect arranged universe, founded on well stablished logical principles and laws, and in which a kind of intelligence appears evident everywhere in nature developed the kind of psychological strength to think in to create at its own level, moving constantly the limits of its imagination in search for archaetypes that no other civilization even dreamed to pursue.

Ours is not a comtemplative mentality, we are not just admirers of the harmony of the cosmos, as other cultures that preceded us, ours is the only civilization based on the thoughts of a man that taught us to dream in the greatness of not only what exists but all what can be possible to mind, that can't be seen or touched but can be reached through the power of our convictions focused into continue a path of creation started by life millions of years ago, a vital force from which we are its most esquisite expression.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

These claims are completely untrue. There are NO contemporary records, Roman, Indian, Druid, Japanese, or otherwise, of any character as depicted in the Gospel. There WERE plenty of people running around with the name of "Joshua" or "Jesus" or "Jason" or any variant thereof. None of their stories is what is recorded in the New Testament.
Writings regarding Pilate and Jesus, such as the obviously fictitious "Acts of Pilate," are well-known forgeries, admitted by the Catholic Encyclopedia. The Jewish historian Philo wrote about Pilate, mentioning his abuses, but not a single word about anyone remotely resembling Jesus Christ being crucified under his procuratorship.
This statement that there are "MILLIONS of ancient texts" is completely absurd. What we have are some 200 gospels and epistles, many of which were Gnostic, i.e., they represented a fictional or allegorical Jesus, not a "man who walked the earth." The childhood stories as found in the Infancy Gospels are in large part tales about the Hindu god Krishna, whose name was "Christos" in Greek, by which the soldiers of Alexander the Great called him. The Indian text, the Bhagavat Purana, was historicized and Judaized sometime during the second century. Other "texts" purportedly mentioning Jesus that Kimball is apparently referring to are the myths of other cultures that revolve around the ubiquitous sun god or solar hero. These various Gnostic and noncanonical texts are not "hidden" but have been known for centuries and correctly dismissed as "apocryphal" or bogus. Kimball is attempting to make this "discovery" appear earth-shattering.

a reply to: toktaylor

Really?!! Ha, Ha you definitively made my Friday, a drop of humor is not so bad every certain time.

Excuse me, but I honestly think that nobody with a mininum of education in History is going to take you seriously, with all the respect you deserve, yours is an effort that is already condenned to failure, not because Jesus Christ would be a myth, but because you are wrong.

To the contrary, my friend, the level of the attacks Christ has received along history is such that there are dozens of sources of those so hostile criticisms against him that can't be altogether wrong in only one aspect they agreed:

That they refer to a very real figure of History.

bible.org...

Just his trial is well documented in Roman and Jewish accounts of that epoch:

law2.umkc.edu...

Do you really think in your mind that the so many martyrs of Christianism in the first four centuries of our era were going to die for a myth in the Circus massimus devored by Lions? there were just among the young single women more than 11000 sacrified in that or similar way rejecting to get rid of their trust in a man that you call a legend?!!!

Pls read:
www.provethebible.net...

The arrogance and boldness of your post deserve a second reply in which I am going to mention a more entensive list of pagan and jewish sources about Christ.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: toktaylor

Let me suggest Why you don't post that reply in the personal dreams forum?

This is the one of Science and technology, here we can't discuss fictional parallel versions of HIstory, sorry but this space is not to discuss imaginary universes, everything must be objective and also we dont't follow the law of autosuggestion, a lie can be repeated a millions of times and if it is not scientific unfortunately can't be accepted, as it happens under certain levels of Hypnosis .

Now, if somebody thinks that it pay off to devote its time in impossibles, let me say that to be able to "show" my friend that Jesus Christ never existed you first need to demonstrate that well known Jewish extremely Hostile sources on his existence are absolutely fictious, like the Babylonian Talmud, The History of the Jews of Flavius Josephus, and the Toledot Yeshu.

Please read:

coldcasechristianity.com...

www.bethinking.org...

Notice that I even didnt need to mention the Acts of Pilates, and by the way you can also find very interesting accounts of Jesus Christ in the Quram.

Moreover, you also would need to get rid of a constellation of pagan authors that in their attacks against Christianism never suggested that Jesus Chrst was a myth, because they didn't want to fall in public ridicule, to the contrary treated him as a very real figure of history, like Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata, Plegon, Suetoniuos, Celsus, Pliny the Younger, Thalus, and Mara Bar Serapion.

Next time please tell me one of Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Isabel Allende or Jose Zaramago but do it in the forum of LIterature where I am sure you can entertain a lot of readers with your delighting fiction of Historic novels.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

I don't accept that this wretched phantasm is a "god" of any sort. And the condescension of BLIND believers never fails to astound. Remember also many unbelievers has also been killed (during the crusades etc) who refused to change their mind.

While the rest of this maudlin mush may evoke sympathy for an apparently pained existence, it does not serve as a demonstration of anything other than the mental state of cristians.

Regarding the statement that it is "a thousand times easier to critique than to advocate" - HARDLY a truism in the case of Christianity, the proponents of which have tortured and slaughtered some 200 million or more unbelievers over the centuries. Considering how even today critical scholars and scientists are shouted down by emotional believers, it is MUCH more difficult to point out that there is NO historical or archaeological record for this fable having taking place in history. It takes an enormous amount of courage, in fact.

No matter what these guys come up with, the fact will remain that virtually the entire gospel story is found around the globe for centuries and millennia prior to the Christian era and represents the personification of the sun.

And for those who have problems with the truthful statements from the Catholic Encyclopedia regarding fraudulent compositions from its own Church hierarchy, we have plenty of Protestant scholars also attesting to the fact of Christian forgery.

The Protestant Encyclopedia Biblica states, "Almost every one of the Apostles had a Gospel fathered upon him by one early sect or another."

Another Protestant authority, Dr. Conyers Middleton said:

There never was any period of time in all ecclesiastical history, in which so many rank heresies were publicly professed, nor in which so many spurious books were forged and published by the Christians, under the names of Christ, and the Apostles, and the Apostolic writers, as in those primitive ages. Several of forged books are frequently cited and applied to the defense of Christianity, by the most eminent fathers of the same ages, as true and genuine pieces.

a reply to: toktaylor

Sorry, with all respect to your convictions, but you are clearly far off topic, the thread is not about apocrypha, nor about ancient solar cults or anything of Prechristian times that look to resemble in certain aspects Christian beliefs, neither about criticism among Protestants or Catholics about what each denomination believe or not.

Here we are discussing an object that is being analyzed with scientific methods for its supposed relationship with him, and the limitations of the present technology to show its so complex and diverse composition and how that heterogeinity don't allow a simple analysis of it using traditional C14 dating techniques.

Our interest on Jesus Christ in this thread is exclusively historic, non religious, and in what attains to his legacy to the boosting of the scientific thought in the Western civilization.

Now it is not scientifically serious to try to rewrite History of civilization, that is well preserved and recorded in extremely large archives to what any scholar has access thanks to the present information Technology, such a project does not have way to enter in a forum about Science and Technology.

If you don't want to trust in a Roman Proconsul as Tacitus or in an renoun Jewish Historian as Flavius Josephus is your personal problem. I can continue mentioning non biblical sources of the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth probably for weeks, to the ones already cited, as Philo of Alexandria, Justus of Tiberias, the very well confirmed Qumran connection, etc, etc.

www.rejectionofpascalswager.net...

www.garyhabermas.com...


Again don't waste your energy to try to hide the sun with the hands, the historicity of Christ was already proven centuries before we have born. The History of entire nations is linked to that assumption that of course is ridicule to start to deny now, even our era was fixed in an attempt to find its precise year of birth, we live in the second millenium of such event.

There is an impresive collection of artifacts that belonged in one or other way to Christ that were brought by the Empress Helena to Rome in the fourth century as undoubtful evidence of his actual existence.

Roman Empress Helene following the steps of the Historic Christ

www.brown.edu...

www.coinsweekly.com...

This is a space for scholars or researchers devoted to science not for irresponsible speculations that only reveal ignorance or resentment, we don't accept here nonsense pseudo-theories that instead to elevate the quality of the discussion in the forum discredit it if are tolerated.

By the way If you want to discuss about the divinity or non divinity of Christ I encourage you to go into one of the forums of religion in ATS.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

The consistent information that the samples taken were not in the imaged area, is like trying to test for water in a desert.
Throwing out all of the rhetoric about destroying the sacred option, you donate a a 1/4" hole , perhaps near the feet. A simple hole punch will do. Add a little tag that says "Here is where we took a sample - date:xx/xx/xxxx."

The only way science will ever really get to play a role in this is to look at what is really there.

a reply to: charlyv

Well, I think we must let the science to develop a non invasive and non destructive technology to know what is there. Spectrography is the natural discipline to arrive to such advance, to device a new instrument able to date without eliminating nothing in the object.

There is no urgency to precipitate a damage of which future generations can accuse ours in a clearly unrespectful attempt to calm our skepticism or morbo, because that is all what is in game here, the doubt about the death of somebody of whom there are anyway entire libraries around the world of historic documentation.

If somebody say to you that needs to open a 1/4" hole in the face of your death father or mother face just to confirm his identity would you accept it? Well Jesus of Nazareth didn't have biological descendants, also we don't have anymore his corpse, however the shroud is his only material remain and our civilization is in some sense his posterity, because his were the ideals that moved us ahead since the night of the times from barbarism to our current level of culture or humanism. It was Christ who understood that it paid off his sacrifice to try to push humanity out of the law of Jungle.

If we have today a culture of human rights and passive resistance to corruption, oppression or tyranny in the world, the victory of the reason over the brutal force, and we ask who was who moved that cause the first, well Christ should be mentioned , even putting aside any religious considerations.

We don't need to go to the stars of galaxies to know with precision what materials they are made of, so why we must accept that a relic that is right here, that has strong chances to be authentic, of who can be easily considered as the great inspirational founder of the modern western civilization must be damaged to know what is there?

Even the C14 current dating technology must be improved. If we can isolate just one linen fiber of the shroud and separate it completely of the surrounding cotton or the bioplastic material generated by bacteria along centuries, that according with the discovering of Garza-Valdes create a huge bias in the dating, then we can date by only destroying one filament of the cloth. Statistics can also give us a great hand to achieve such a goal.

We must cease to think that science is just only destruction or reduction of matter using chemical methods, we are living in a era of great progress in Analytical physics using computational methods, today real science is the one that is able to understand something from its mere observation, that was what moved great inventions in History as the microscope or the telescope.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

A hole in a toe is not a hole in a face.
One definitive test puts to rest a lot of future rhetoric.
Without something like this you risk the possible loss from calamity, without ever having saved a piece of the original.
It's called backup.

a reply to: charlyv

Dear Chartyv,

It sufficies to find the way to estimate how much is the bias that in the C14 can be caused for the proportion of current material that is actually cottom, and also how much weight has the presence of thick layer of bioplastic material developed along centuries by bacteria living on the surface of the shroud to make possible a correction on the dating of 1988.

This can be done probably using data coming from tests already practised on Egyptian mummies, or also doing simple laboratory experiments taken old fibers of other ancient objects of linen and mixing up them with cottom and performing carbon dating on them.

Those indirect tests can help us to develop mathematical models that we can apply to the data taken from the shroud to estimate the level of bias that we have on it. We don't need to risk the actual relic to do this, and the results would be anyway very acceptable.

If we move the testing from the domain of Physics to the one of Statistics by sure we could find the actual date without destroying more precious material. After all, this is not so much different than the indirect none destructive analysis used to estimate dates on other sciences, like Astronomy, in which it is impossible to get material samples of the actual objects, for instance on estimating the age of stars of distant planets using mathematical models.

en.wikipedia.org...

What I am talking about here is to develop evolutionary models of clothes to estimate the rate of change of the Carbon Dating everytime that old material is mixed with increasing amounts of impurities, in this case cottom that is much younger, particles of carbon carried by smog of fires, or bioplastic materials produced by microorganisms living on it.

The Cloth must be seen not just as an inert or steady state material, but as an organic tissue that is changing in its chemical properties along the time as a consquence of the decay but also of the repairs carried out on it to assure its preservation for future.

Thanks,

The Angel of LIghtness